澳洲变天了，同婚合法了，怎么跟子女们说？

洋芋土豆

这次事件让我深刻体会到保守教会暗力量之强大，在华人中尤甚

chatchat

jianxli 发表于 2017-11-18 07:37
信教之后连基本的逻辑思维也没了？你这个链接是一帮信教的华人父母办的网页，一共有几个人都不知道。居然 ...

所以我尽量不同信教的同学讨论这些事情，如果因为各种原因加入教会，是另一回事，“笃信”这个事情，几乎就等于不理性，因为这里面有factual error和logical fallacy 两重谬误，失去了argue的基础。
以下这个有意思，来自网站：https://www.logicallyfallacious. ... 7/Being-a-Smart-Ass

There are two general schools of thought on how to point out a fallacy to your opponent.  On the one hand, you can tactfully explain why your opponent's reasoning is erroneous (1 smart-ass point), without mentioning the name of the fallacy.  On the other hand, you can tell your opponent that his reasoning is fallacious (1 smart-ass point), tell him the name of the fallacy he committed (another smart-ass point), tell him why it is a fallacy (another smart-ass point), then extend his underwear over his head, and conclude with, “by the way, in Latin that fallacy is known as [insert Latin name here].” (10 smart-ass points)!  Of course, you could take a path somewhere in between, but what you certainly should be prepared for, is your opponents pointing out your fallacies, and if you know about fallacies, you will be ready to defend yourself.

jianxli

路边的小草 发表于 2017-11-20 09:52
我原贴里有原文连接啊，打开连接，原文里有第二篇的连接啊 和safe school 的关系

Dr Steven Angelid ...

和你的交流很困难。你指的第二篇，是不是“Historicizing Affect, Psychoanalyzing History: Pedophilia and the Discourse of Child Sexuality”？能够写的清楚一点好吗？不要让人猜。

“Historicizing Affect, Psychoanalyzing History: Pedophilia and the Discourse of Child Sexuality”是一篇发表在同性恋学期刊上。这是一篇对恋童癖的精神分析的学术论文。其论文摘要是：
“Abstract
Within the last two decades in Australia, Britain, and the United States, we have seen a veritable explosion of cultural panic regarding the problem of pedophilia. Scarcely a day passes without some mention in the media of predatory pedophiles or organized pedophile networks. Many social constructionist historians and sociologists have described this incitement to discourse as indicative of a moral panic. The question that concerns me in this article is: If this incitement to discourse is indicative of a moral panic, to what does the panic refer? I begin by detailing, first, how social constructionism requires psychoanalytic categories in order to understand the notion of panic, and second, how a psychoanalytic reading of history might reveal important unconscious forces at work in the current pedophilia "crisis" that our culture refuses to confront. Here, I will suggest a repressed discourse of child sexuality is writ large. I will argue that the hegemonic discourse of pedophilia is contained largely within a neurotic structure and that many of our prevailing responses to pedophilia function as a way to avoid tackling crucial issues about the reality and trauma of childhood sexuality.“

Ref: Historicizing affect, psychoanalyzing history: pedophilia and the discourse of child sexuality (PDF Download Available). Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/pub ... _of_child_sexuality [accessed Nov 20 2017].

这无论如何和Safe School联系不起来。一帮匿名的基督徒在那里断章取义，造谣中伤的谎言发表在一个匿名的网页上。你看了就相信了。

好奇地问一下，你的学历背景是什么？别人断章取义，让你信啥你就信啥。和你说水会变成葡萄酒，你就相信水会变成葡萄酒。和你说人死后三天复活了，你就相信人死后三天就复活了。你尝试过用自己的脑子来思维吗？

tinyshare

答案有了，不准说

十亭

以后在路上不光长得漂亮的女人要担心安全了，漂亮的男人也要担心了

反正机器人时代都快来临了，以后人类存在不存在还两说。就可着命的折腾吧

路边的小草

jianxli 发表于 2017-11-20 13:17
和你的交流很困难。你指的第二篇，是不是“Historicizing Affect, Psychoanalyzing History: Pedophilia  ...

欧，实在没太多时间写的细，让你觉得交流困难了。
好吧，你认为是断章取义，造谣中伤，知道了，我尊重你的看法，保留我的看法。
谢谢你对我背景的好奇， 我对和safe school 有关的感兴趣，无意有其它的交流。

yuxuanlin

屁股决定脑袋, 床上床下都一样。

人类就这样了, 安了吧。

cocokwok

怎麼跟孩子說？ 難道說現在同婚合法了，你趕緊去找個同性結婚吧？怎麼是這種思維？

路边的小草

但愿同婚合法后和ssc 更全面推行之间再折腾几年，我孩子就中学毕业了，我心会安很多

ahj

同性婚姻合法化只是一个民意调查。还没有正式立法，就已经掀起悍然大波。这次调查的重点是，是否赞成同性婚姻合法。不少人也许错误理解为，是否赞成同性婚姻。也有一些人，有意将同性婚姻与异性婚姻对立起来，支持同性婚姻合法化就是反对异性婚姻。因此指责澳洲政府赞成，支持，甚至鼓励同性恋，同性婚姻。但是，异性婚姻在澳洲几百年来都是合法的。现在也是合法的。为什么他们不因此认为澳洲政府赞成，支持，鼓励异性恋，异性婚姻。

同性婚姻合法并不意味着异性婚姻非法。现在的澳洲社会，同性恋者还是少数，异性婚姻占绝大多数，是澳洲社会的主流。同性婚姻合法也不可能改变现状。如果仅仅因为允许同性婚姻合法，就能导致同性恋者剧增，同性婚姻迅速占据主流，那我们就要认真思考一下，具有几千年历史，一直占据人口大多数的异性婚姻究竟出了什么问题，使它如此不堪一击。

且不论谁对谁错，780万人投 Yes 的人只是同意它的合法性。而不是赞成，支持同性恋。他们中的大多数并不是同性恋者。他们投 Yes 更多地是以平等，宽容的心态，给予同性恋者合法的生存空间。澳洲社会不就是以这种宽容的心态接纳各国难民和移民的吗？那些一向自认被歧视的人，丑化歧视别人起来，更是有过之，无不及。

yuxuanlin

ahj 发表于 2017-11-21 15:59
同性婚姻合法化只是一个民意调查。还没有正式立法，就已经掀起悍然大波。这次调查的重点是，是否赞成同性婚 ...

据说有的公共地方已经不允许公开讨论同性恋以及通婚对错与否了。

这个正常吗?

失去平衡的事情, 从来都是违背自然的事情。

milkzhan

yuxuanlin 发表于 2017-11-21 16:08
据说有的公共地方已经不允许公开讨论同性恋以及通婚对错与否了。

这个正常吗?

真的，我大女儿的学校就规定，不允许在公共场所讨论这个问题，连跟父母都不要讨论。我不知道学校发出这个规定是太保守了，还是只是避免争执？

lewyoung

我觉得自然而然的告诉就可以了，不要大惊小怪

路边的小草

ahj 发表于 2017-11-21 15:59
同性婚姻合法化只是一个民意调查。还没有正式立法，就已经掀起悍然大波。这次调查的重点是，是否赞成同性婚 ...

我觉得你说的挺好的，很多地方我同意，而且欣赏你发表看法的客观性。就是有一点，我的看法是反对同性合法也并不意味着就是歧视同性恋，同性恋中也有反对同性合法的。我不敢代表别人，至少我认为我不歧视。同性恋也有追求自己生活的自由和权利，都是成年人，我尊重他们的选择和权利。但同时，我觉得我也有如何对我孩子进行性教育的权利。你觉得同性合法后，家长还会有选择权吗？看到英国，加拿大和美国同性合法后，对教育领域的冲击的情况，我并不乐观。一位加拿大的父亲因为拒绝让自己的孩子接受同性恋教育，而被送上法庭，最后败诉。那在澳洲，父母是不是也要面临如此情况呢？维洲推行ssc 的情况，让我对未来家长所面临的情况也不乐观。从去年我开始关注ssc, 看过ssc 的教案，以我受的教育专业训练和实践经验可以很负责的说，这样的教案如果实行起来，所达的效果远远不是反欺凌那么简单，其中的理念在成人之间和医学界尚存有争议，在学校里以课程的形式，针对心智尚未成熟，并不具备成熟的判断力的孩子并不适宜。后来从公开可以找到的家长和老师的反馈证实了我的看法。这对孩子的影响，短期内看不出来，10年，20年可以再看，当然这是我个人的看法而已（至于医学方面对此质疑就此不展开）大概出于作为母亲的本能和从事教育职业的敏感性，我的专注点一直在孩子教育上。可不可以这样说，反对同性合法中也有对同性合法所带来的对孩子教育影响的一种担忧，如果还说这是歧视，那我也没办法了。个性不喜争论，因为看过你在教育版上的教育孩子的心得，如果我记得没错，你是个重视孩子教育的爸爸，所以我才会多说点。

chenzy0513

milkzhan 发表于 2017-11-21 18:20
真的，我大女儿的学校就规定，不允许在公共场所讨论这个问题，连跟父母都不要讨论。我不知道学校发出这个 ...

same here.

但是不是學校， 而是學校華人家長群的群主， 禁止談論同婚， 還禁止談論宗教。
可是我們就是聖公會的學校的家長群啊。

禁止談論宗教, then why send your daughter to an Anglican school in the first place?

真是奇怪的思維。

milkzhan

chenzy0513 发表于 2017-11-22 12:42
same here.

但是不是學校， 而是學校華人家長群的群主， 禁止談論同婚， 還禁止談論宗教。

群里不让讨论这个问题还好理解，因为不想引起不必要的争论（因为不论怎么争，谁都不会说服谁）。但是学校不让孩子讨论，我有点不明，讨论不是为了证明谁对谁错，而是让孩子自己去独立思考一下，为什么禁止呢？

ahj

路边的小草 发表于 2017-11-22 12:28
我觉得你说的挺好的，很多地方我同意，而且欣赏你发表看法的客观性。就是有一点，我的看法是反对同性合法 ...

我只是就事论事，歧视是指在这次事件中通过有意妖化来贬低他人。你所考虑更多的是事件对将来的影响，尤其是对中小学教育的影响。

对于同性恋教育，从内容到形式，我都不了解，因此也没有发言权。我就奇怪为什么同性婚姻合法后，学校就一定会开展同性恋教育。异性婚姻合法了那么多年，学校怎么就没有异性恋教育。另外，同性恋教育的目的是什么？为什么澳洲政府，学校，老师都支持同性恋教育，难道他们都是同性恋者或支持者吗？

其实，在中小学里开展同性恋教育，异性恋教育，甚至性教育我都不会支持。这些教育没有是非标准，也没有对错答案。只有引诱，教唆的嫌疑。在世界各国里，也没有看到成功的例子。成人都争论不休的议题，你指望中小学生能学到什么？不懂就不要装懂。做错还不如不做。

scott.songgps

假发哥出事了吗？

scott.songgps

我们人民群众真是什么办法都没有！

jianxli

Church pays legal costs of paedophile priests - repeatedly

http://www.smh.com.au/national/c ... 20121115-29evw.html

THE Catholic Church has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on legal fees to defend priests and brothers who have already been tried and convicted of serious sexual assaults against children in their care.

A Fairfax Media investigation has revealed that at least two Catholic orders have continued to fund the legal defences of some of their religious members as they went to trial for the second, third and even fourth time for the sexual abuse of children.

This includes the funding of multiple appeals, hiring barristers who charge thousands of dollars a day, and hiring private investigators.

In some cases the result has been that criminal prosecutions and the victims are dragged through the courts for years.

''It is extremely offensive and hurtful to victims that Catholic Church orders are continuing to fund the defences of priests and brothers after they have been convicted,'' said Nicky Davis of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests. ''We can see what's going on and we can see that it's obscene,'' she said.

The head of professional standards at one of Australia's largest Catholic orders, Christian Brothers, confirmed that the order had continued to fund the defence of two of its members - Brother Robert Charles Best and Brother Edward Vernon Dowlan - after they had been convicted of sexually abusing children at Catholic schools in Victoria.

Best has had at least five court battles funded by the Christian Brothers dating back to 1996, including multiple trials on multiple counts of indecent assault and buggery.

In August last year Best was jailed for a maximum of 14 years and nine months but is appealing his conviction in the Victorian Supreme Court.

According to the victim support group Broken Rites, by the late 1990s the Christian Brothers had spent about $400,000 in defending Dowlan and Best.

The costs reportedly included ''56 full days in court, two Queen's Counsel barristers, a team of solicitors, legal office staff, private investigators, psychiatrists, psychologists and other paid experts who gave character evidence on behalf of the offenders''.

The order's executive officer for professional standards, Brother Brian Brandon, confirmed it had funded Best and Dowlan's defences, and said the order had a broad policy of funding the defences of brothers charged in relation to child sex abuse.

When it was put to him that it was not appropriate for the order to continue funding its members' legal defences after they had been convicted, he said: ''Well, that's one perspective.

''Either you, the taxpayer, are providing the funding via legal aid or the congregation is helping you out by providing the funding,'' he said.

''We think it is better for the congregation to provide the funding, if a brother has no independent means, than for you, the public, to pay through legal aid.''

The Provincial of the smaller, Sydney-based Marist Fathers order, Father Paul Cooney, confirmed that his order had funded

the legal defence of two priests - Roger Michael Bellemore and Gregory Laurence Ferguson - after they had been convicted of sexually abusing children at church-run boarding schools in Burnie, Tasmania.

After Bellemore was convicted at his first trial in 2006, the order apologised ''for any harm suffered by the former students''. His lawyers then immediately lodged an appeal and won. In 2008 Bellemore was convicted again at his third trial.

Father Cooney said the order had believed it was ensuring its members were given a competent defence but it had subsequently changed its policy regarding convicted members.

''If, now, a member was found guilty after the first case, we would say 'no more money will be forthcoming from the church'.''

Fairfax Media understands that Catholic Church funding for the legal defence of priests and brothers who have already been convicted comes from a number of sources, including the revenue of individual orders. In some cases this may include the church collection box, as well as property investments. It is understood that in some cases the money may come from the church's insurance company, Catholic Church Insurances Ltd.

wbjmail

ahj 发表于 2017-11-22 16:58
我只是就事论事，歧视是指在这次事件中通过有意妖化来贬低他人。你所考虑更多的是事件对将来的影响，尤其 ...

学校应该一直有适龄学生的青春期教育和性教育，现在等合法以后，会加入同性部分，应该是这样
我一直在打听学校啥时候做青春期教育呢，孩子青春期快到了

ahj

wbjmail 发表于 2017-11-23 07:26
学校应该一直有适龄学生的青春期教育和性教育，现在等合法以后，会加入同性部分，应该是这样
我一直在打 ...

作一些生理介绍或许还可以。除此之外，青春期教育还能做什么？恋爱，婚姻，生育，家庭以及其它道德观念都与民族文化，宗教信仰有关。学校怎么教？即使学校愿意，家长还不一定同意呢。

路边的小草

ahj 发表于 2017-11-22 16:58
我只是就事论事，歧视是指在这次事件中通过有意妖化来贬低他人。你所考虑更多的是事件对将来的影响，尤其 ...

我觉得你在不了解的情况下思索的问题挺到位的，赞一个。如果了解后，你的看法在我看来也会客观。
对后面的观点，大部分都赞同。

Pipiv

楼主又犯事了？

milkzhan

ahj 发表于 2017-11-23 09:49
作一些生理介绍或许还可以。除此之外，青春期教育还能做什么？恋爱，婚姻，生育，家庭以及其它道德观念都 ...

不知道小学都教什么，好像公校教得多。到了中学好像性教育就不通知家长了，9年级开始教小孩怎么套"香蕉"，不是说有小孩上了那些课，都不愿意再吃香蕉了

wbjmail

这个学校教育除非特别情况一般都不通知家长的

scott.songgps

Pipiv 发表于 2017-11-23 10:31
楼主又犯事了？

是不是被“双规”了？

Pipiv

scott.songgps 发表于 2017-11-23 15:09
是不是被“双规”了？

不要紧，假发哥估计已经轻车熟路了，不知道他这次犯了什么

路边的小草

http://youreteachingourchildrenwhat.org/

西人妈妈建立的网站，一些最新信息，课程链接，分析，专家看法，妈妈亲历，想了解的父母，就看看，要扣帽子的，往宗教上扯的请绕道。

After much consideration we have decided to launch this webpage anonymously because of the hostility of the debate surrounding the Safe Schools Coalition Australia. “Homophobic”, “intolerant”, “bigot” are just some of the words used to describe anyone who has voiced their concerns about this program.  As stated previously, we are concerned mothers, not experts, we do not want our message to be politicised. We also have children in schools who we want to protect from the inevitable barrage of criticism they will face.

In short, “You’re teaching our children what?” aims to:

Raise public  awareness of the problem
Provide moral and practical support to parents and friends
Create change school by school, state by state

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/mother-pulls-children-from-frankston-high-school-over-transgender-awareness-rules/news-story/0b44bfe1ab5be79592261672051b5c60

scott.songgps

Pipiv 发表于 2017-11-23 15:17
不要紧，假发哥估计已经轻车熟路了，不知道他这次犯了什么

可能是忘戴假发了！