开帖问一下出差退税

catchmeifucan

taxbreak 发表于 2012-9-27 10:20
Australian tax system is one of the most complicated tax systems on the planet.   in most occasi ...

我到不是舍不得拿几十块钱，主要是觉得，对于普通上班族报税，自己最好搞明白了，因为我周围的人去找会计，也是五花八门说什么的都有，保险不担责任的就告诉你别申报了，也有不少说你报上就行，没问题。我也自己没啥生意，所以认为自己搞就可以了。
我相信专业的服务能够让我收益，但是我觉得几十块是卖不到这种服务的，顶多买一个填表服务。

JohnnySu

catchmeifucan 发表于 2012-9-27 15:43
说实话我不是舍不得拿几十块钱，主要是觉得，对于普通上班族报税，自己最好搞明白了，因为我周围的人去找 ...

That is totally fine. Just ask us if you encounter any problems :)

catchmeifucan

taxbreak 发表于 2012-9-27 15:47
That is totally fine. Just ask us if you encounter any problems

多谢了!

oz2009

所以没有固定的说法。

不如楼主可以试着报销一下。

成功了也告诉我们。

下次我们也可以报销了。

JohnnySu

oz2009 发表于 2012-9-29 23:21
所以没有固定的说法。

不如楼主可以试着报销一下。

有固定的说法的 并不是无棱两可 看不懂我的回复的话问问你的会计吧 毕竟这样发贴说不了多少内容.

oz2009

taxbreak 发表于 2012-9-30 14:10
有固定的说法的 并不是无棱两可 看不懂我的回复的话问问你的会计吧 毕竟这样发贴说不了多少内容. ...

我把公司给我的per diem加成income，把和ATO标准差距的钱claim成work related travel不就可以啦。

walyp

今天刚好看到这个帖子，我也有类似的出差情况，想在这里请教一下我这种情况能否报税。

我的公司允许我一年之内不超过三个月的时间可以自己选择工作地点，随便哪里都可以但是公司不负担任何费用。我去年财年就回去中国11周，所有的衣食住行都是我自己承担的。在我年度报税的单子上，PAYG只有薪水这一项，什么差旅津贴报销什么的都没有，请问我这种情况下能否抵税呢毕竟我是去工作的，只是自己花自己的钱而已。如果可以拿我最多可以报多少呢按照税务局的标准。

谢谢

catchmeifucan

帮顶楼上顶一下。

3IX37

This is very simple.

The taxpaper received travel allowance for $315 (200 accommodation, $ 150 meal and incidental)

1) For international travel, the substantiation exception does not apply to the accommodation, so he has to keep all the record and invoices for his accommodation
2) His travel allowance received for meals and incidental is $ 150, while he actually spent $ 180. and the reasonable amount accepted by the commissioner is $215 without inovice. Consequently he is eligbile to claim travel expenses for meals and incidental for $180 without invoices.
3) if his travel is more than 6 days, a travel diary is required.


In relation to our elite CA's comment.  I disagree. He failed to correctly  interpret TD 2012/17, which explained as follows:

1) TD 2012/17 states that this ruling should be read in line with TR 2004/6
2) TR 2004/6 para 12 states, all allowance must be shown as assessable income, subject to some exceptions. Among those exceptions, one states that a taxpayer is not required to disclose his allowance as an assessable income when it is not shown on his payment summary, as the result he can't claim travel allowance expenses under substantiation exception rule.  In another words, a taxpayer can choose to disclose his allowance received from employer as an assessable income and he then is eligible to apply substantiation exception rules subject the travel allowance expenses is bona fide.

For more information you should also read my other posts.

http://www.oursteps.com.au/bbs/f ... ;page=1#pid10760342[/url][/url]

JohnnySu

3IX37 发表于 2012-10-8 08:30
This is very simple.

The taxpaper received travel allowance for $315 (200 accommodation, $ 150 mea ...

Good to know you did some reading but you are still wrong.   anyways

3IX37

Furthermore, the allowance is not only limited to the allowance separately stated on your PAYG payment summary statement. All payments recieved by an employee from his employers to cover lossess or outgoings incurred by the employee is an allowance in theory.

and Travel allowance has a definite definition in s.900-30, it is an allowance paid by your employer to you to cover the losses or outgoings incurred for your work travel away from home.

and most allowances in respect of employment or service should be included in your assesable income in your tax return item 2 with limit exceptions. (s.15-2 ITAA1997)

Of course. per TR2004/6, if your allowance is not separated state on your PAYG payment summary statement, and you actually incurred and eligible for the deduction for the work expenses, you are NOT REQUIRED (but you can choose) to disclose this allowance as an income, and you therefore can't claim your work expenses under substantiatoin exception rules.

3IX37

taxbreak 发表于 2012-10-8 10:36
Good to know you did some reading but you are still wrong.   anyways

too bad you are not doing enough my friend. I bet you have been busy charging people, right? How much is the hourly rate? $ 200 or $ 300?

If you hold other opions, it would be much convincing if you can provide a reference or legislation. Think about how you got your CA qualificatoin. I don't believe you would have got it by just answering "this is still wrong", right? :)

"Facts, references and reasonings" I can't emphasis these more enough. It is too bad you stop learning. I always say to those candidates, CA credential is only a mean to the end, it is not the end itself. Don't stop learning mate.  

Kurtgui

mark mark

JasonLiu@Au

40楼的CA请指点一下36楼的做法是否正确。“我把公司给我的per diem加成income，把和ATO标准差距的钱claim成work related travel不就可以啦。”

例如，公司给100块一天的Per Diem，直接打到员工账户上面，没有显示在Group Certificate.

员工报税的时候，先把100加到Income 部分的第2节 （Allowance，earnings，tips, directors fees etc)

然后按照ATO允许的上限申报出差费用，放在D2 work-related travel expenses.

我觉得这样是正确的做法，请指教

JasonLiu@Au

taxbreak 发表于 2012-10-8 11:36
Good to know you did some reading but you are still wrong.   anyways

敬请指教下面的做法是否正确。

我把公司给我的per diem加成income，把和ATO标准差距的钱claim成work related travel不就可以啦。”

例如，公司给100块一天的Per Diem，直接打到员工账户上面，没有显示在Group Certificate.

员工报税的时候，先把100加到Income 部分的第2节 （Allowance，earnings，tips, directors fees etc)

然后按照ATO允许的上限申报出差费用，放在D2 work-related travel expenses.

3IX37

JasonLiu@Au 发表于 2012-10-8 11:00
40楼的CA请指点一下36楼的做法是否正确。“我把公司给我的per diem加成income，把和ATO标准差距的钱claim成 ...

This should be the correct interpretaion. and there are references supporting this as well.

Please refer my previous posts for the reference.

JohnnySu

JasonLiu@Au 发表于 2012-10-8 11:02
敬请指教下面的做法是否正确。

我把公司给我的per diem加成income，把和ATO标准差距的钱claim成work rel ...

Because there is no "boni fide" travel allowance showing on your group certificate. You can not rely on the commissioner's rate. i.e. you can still claim out-of-pocket expenses but the whole amount has to be substantiated. In an ATO audit when someone doesnt have the allowance on group certificate the ATO always asks to see receipts.

3IX37

taxbreak 发表于 2012-10-8 11:51
Because there is no "boni fide" travel allowance showing on your group certificate. You can not re ...

What is the definition of "bona fide allowance"? where is your reference?

TR 2004/6 defines Bona fide as amount paid could reasonable expected to cover the travel expenses. It obviously does not match with your understanding.

Here the payment  is paid, and the amount is reasonable to cover the expenses. and it therefore is Bona fide allowance.

Again, Tax is a legislative matter, not only an accounting matter. You should have a solid understanding of the terminology and definitions before giving a sound advice.

Or you can keep doing this until you dig a hole for yourself.

JasonLiu@Au

我去年海外出差很多, 公司给的Per Diem只有ATO Rate的一半。我的计划是先把公司发的Per Diem加到Income 部分的第2节 （Allowance，earnings，tips, directors fees etc)， 然后按照ATO允许的上限申报出差费用，放在D2 work-related travel expenses. 根据ATO的文件TD 2011/17 的substantiation exception, 以ATO的Reasonable Travel Expense Amount来申报抵扣是不用提供实际发票的.

问题是, 我下面的情况是否符合substantiation exception的要求吗?

我的情况

公司给的Per Diem是以旅行之前发的一个统一金额，例如$100一天。不是那种出差之后按照实际费用来报销的。 这个Per Diem是低于ATO的Rate, 没有PAYG withoulding , 也不显示在Group Certificate上面。Group Certificate只显示了工资部分,没有包含这个Per Diem.

我的Supporting documents
1：公司的Per Diem申请表和经理Approval证据
2：实际收到Per Diem的收据
3：每次出差前，经理发的travel approval 电子邮件, 里面有每次行程的工作内容和时间安排.
4：旅行社中介发的行程表

我的理由如下：

What is Substantiation exception?
Substantiation exception – Where the amount claimed is no more than the applicable reasonable amount, substantiation of the claim with written evidence is not required.

我的注解：在符合条件的情况下, Travel Expense deduction低于ATO的Reasonable Travel Expense AmountTravel 是不需要发票的


What is travel allowance?
A travel allowance is a payment made to an employee to cover expenses that are:

incurred when your employee travels away from their home in the course of their duties
for accommodation, food, drink or incidental expenses related to the travel.
When a travel allowance is paid there may be a requirement to withhold an amount from the payment. The information in Withholding from allowances outlines the correct withholding treatment of allowances.

我的注解：Allowance 是可以不用withold的, 因此没有PAYG witholding并不代表这个不是Travel Allownance.


What are the differences between allowances and reimbursements?

Allowances are amounts paid to cover anticipated costs or as compensation for conditions of employment, and are paid regardless of whether the employee incurs an expense. Allowances are assessable income to the employee and are generally included as income in their tax return. The employee may be entitled to claim a deduction. Reimbursements made to employees are exact compensation for actual expenses incurred, and the employer may be subject to fringe benefits tax (FBT). If the reimbursement is covered by FBT, the amount is not assessable income to the employee, and the employee cannot claim a deduction.

我的注解：Allowance 是预计的费用,在旅行前发放. 不是旅行后按照实际费用来申报. 在我的情况中Per Diem是和这个要求符合的.

Allowance 低于ATO Rate是可以不用Withhold。

the allowance is paid at the same rate or below the 'reasonable travel allowance' rate, and the allowance is separately accounted for, no withholding is necessary. In addition, the travel allowance does not need to be shown on an employee's payment summary.

If the allowance is paid above the reasonable travel allowance rate (in total), there is a requirement to withhold from the amount over the reasonable allowances amount. The total amount of the allowance should be included on an employee's payment summary in the allowance box with an explanation.

我的注解：Allowance 是可以不用withold的, 因此没有PAYG witholding并不代表是Travel Allowance


Employee给的Travel Allowance和ATO的指导意见是没有直接关系的
It is important to remember that when ‘setting the reasonable amount ... the Commissioner does not determine the amount of allowance an employee should receive or an employer should pay their employees. The amount of an allowance is a matter to be determined between the payer and the payee’.


没有申报Travel Allowance是不可以按照Substantiation exception来申报Travel Expense

TR 2004/6 para 12 states, all allowance must be shown as assessable income, subject to some exceptions.

If your allowance is not separated state on your PAYG payment summary statement, and you actually incurred and eligible for the deduction for the work expenses, you are NOT REQUIRED to disclose this allowance as an income, and you therefore can't claim your work expenses under substantiatoin exception rules

Among those exceptions, one states that a taxpayer is not required to disclose his allowance as an assessable income when it is not shown on his payment summary, as the result he can't claim travel allowance expenses under substantiation exception rule.

网友3IX37注解：当Employer给的Travel Allowance 低于ATO的Reasonabl amount, 是可以不用申报Income, 也就不可以申报Travel Expense. 但是换句话说, In another words, a taxpayer can choose to disclose his allowance received from employer as an assessable income and he then is eligible to apply substantiation exception rules subject the travel allowance expenses is bona fide
  .

JasonLiu@Au

taxbreak 发表于 2012-10-8 12:51
Because there is no "boni fide" travel allowance showing on your group certificate. You can not re ...

真心请教不同意见。希望提供Boni fide Travel allowance的定义。 在我的例子里面，

公司的Travel Per Diem必须是旅行前申请，不可以旅行之后补申请。Per Diem是一个固定金额，例如100元/天， 不需要提供实际的发票。Per Diem的Rate是低于ATO的Rate, 没有withholding 也不在Group Certificate上面。这样是否符合Boni  fide的定义。

3IX37

JasonLiu@Au 发表于 2012-10-8 21:10
真心请教不同意见。希望提供Boni fide Travel allowance的定义。 在我的例子里面，

公司的Travel Per Di ...

I believe your understanding is right. There is no definition in relation to "Bona fide travel allowance" in both s.6(1) ITAA1936 or s.995-1 ITAA1997. But the commissioner give it his own definition on TR2004/6 para 60, quoted as below:

Must be for a bona fide travel allowance

60. For the substantiation exception to apply, the allowance must be a bona fide travel allowance. That is, the amount paid must be an amount that could reasonably be expected to cover accommodation, or meals or expenses incidental to the travel.

Here clearly states it is amount paid.

Most people confuse with para 59 in relation to fold-in arrangement. This generally is an arrangement between employee and employer before the work starts, they agree upon some amount in addition to the wage to cover the work expenses. If this allowance is not stated on PAYG it is not an allowance for the substantiation exception rule purpose, because this is too general and not bona fide.

Put in an example, there is a civil engineer, who is based in Melb, and his job nature might require him travel to WA from time to time whenever it requires. Before he started his job, he negotiated with his employer for his remuneration package as $ 100,000 wage, and $ 10,000 travel allowance in addition under workplace agreement (purely assuming). Consequently his annual pocket-in income is $110,000, and it is a fold-in arrangement if the $10,000 is not stated on the PAYG Summary separately.

The logic behind this is, the $10,000 is purely an estimate before the parties know whether there would be a bona fide travel , and integrity measure therefore has to be in place to make sure the substantiation exception rule not being abused. As the result, this allowance must be stated on the PAYG summary. But not for those compensation paid to cover particular travels.

Your case is sound and valid.

JohnnySu

JasonLiu@Au 发表于 2012-10-8 21:10
真心请教不同意见。希望提供Boni fide Travel allowance的定义。 在我的例子里面，

公司的Travel Per Di ...

What you have highlighted above from the ATO website is correct. If the allowance is not on your group certificate and you have fully spent it then of course you dont have to claim anything. This is what I referred to as "reimbursement" previously.

catchmeifucan

JasonLiu@Au 发表于 2012-10-8 22:04
我去年出差130天，公司给的Per Diem只有ATO Rate的一半。我的计划是先把公司发的Per Diem加到Income 部分的 ...

学习了。不过如果公司真的给你的补助都是没有交税的，那么你这种申报办法还会导致一个结果就是你缴纳的税额增加了，是不是未必能真正拿到多少好处呐？
比如正好公司给了税局规定的一半，假设200一天的话，你先给自己收入加入了100×天数，又申请100×天数的退税.还是我哪里又理解错了？

JasonLiu@Au

catchmeifucan 发表于 2012-10-9 20:12
学习了。不过如果公司真的给你的补助都是没有交税的，那么你这种申报办法还会导致一个结果就是你缴纳的税 ...

公司补助100一天， 首先加入Income中，

然后在D2费用中，按照200的上限抵扣， 这样不就是多了100的抵扣吗。

整个过程如果是符合规定的话，是合理退税，没有什么错。

catchmeifucan

JasonLiu@Au 发表于 2012-10-9 21:07
公司补助100一天， 首先加入Income中，

然后在D2费用中，按照200的上限抵扣， 这样不就是多了100的抵扣 ...

补助算入Incoming，应该就是在allowance 那一栏吧，填入你的补助金额。不过是不是要算差额再申请退税？前面冒似有人提过，我在其他帖子上看过，到没有从税局文件上读出这一层。

JasonLiu@Au

catchmeifucan 发表于 2012-10-9 23:46
补助算入Incoming，应该就是在allowance 那一栏吧，填入你的补助金额。不过是不是要算差额再申请退税？前 ...

如果你不填写Allowance在Income部分，那么是不可以按照税局的Daily Rate来进行抵扣的。你只能按照实际收据来抵扣。

Jordan

要是真像有些人所说的，这会是多大的一个税务漏洞啊。
基本pay 的per diem都会少于ATO的指导价，岂不是每个人都能去claim deduction了？这不是ATO给人送钱吗？

JohnnySu

Jordan 发表于 2012-10-13 23:22
要是真像有些人所说的，这会是多大的一个税务漏洞啊。
基本pay 的per diem都会少于ATO的指导价，岂不是每个 ...

不是漏洞 是ATO开的方便

如果taxable allowance 是"boni fide" 就是说补贴是跟travel 有密切相关(譬如说xx per overnight stay from home) 这样情况因为人不在家住的地方所以有额外的开销是很容易理解的 所以ATO 每年就发布一个所谓的"reasonable amounts/commissioner's rates" 只要报的开销在这范围之内 ATO 说是不用保留收据的.

但是如果工资单上没有这个"boni fide" travel allowance 的话 我们就不能依靠这个豁免来报.  这种情况需要证明有travel的工作需要而且要保留收据.

JasonLiu@Au

taxbreak 发表于 2012-10-14 09:40
不是漏洞 是ATO开的方便

如果taxable allowance 是"boni fide" 就是说补贴是跟travel 有密切相关(譬如 ...

感谢楼上回复.

请参考我的49楼的情况, 我在这个公司已经工作4年半. 一开始的时候是不需要出差的, 所以工资里面不会有travel allowance的条目. 但是最近12个月,随着公司扩展,渐渐有出差的需要.


请问Boni Fide一定要显示在工资单上吗?  51楼的回复认为fold-in arrangement 是一定会显示在工资单上面.

但是不在工资单就一定要全盘否定吗?在我的情况里面Per Diem是完全符合Travel Allowance 的定义 .

A travel allowance is a payment made to an employee to cover expenses that are: incurred when your employee travels away from their home in the course of their duties  for accommodation, food, drink or incidental expenses related to the travel

您是否有什么不同意见,或者有ATO的条例可以指正一下?

Jordan

要是真有这种好处每个公司为啥不直接把 per diem 写在 PAYG上？ 对他们不是举手之劳吗？除非公司有责任什么的。哪个公司的CEO难道会向着ATO而不是他们的员工？