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楼主:dootbear

[澳洲资讯] 澳洲的外交政策变得笨拙和傲慢 [复制链接]

发表于 2021-9-20 00:00 |显示全部楼层
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nzman 发表于 2021-9-19 08:31
法国算什么东西啊

五常之一,还不能说明问题?
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发表于 2021-9-20 00:01 |显示全部楼层
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Perth好 发表于 2021-9-19 23:45
以色列周边也不是弱鸡,只不过以色列现在很强而已。

以色列相对比较强,但是也架不住周边人多,没事给你扔几个土炸弹啊。
而且这些矛盾看不到结局,现在是平衡了。但是就是在等一个机会,比如美国没空了,或者其他问题,以色列就可能被干?或者反干别人?

但是怎么比也跟中国不一样啊。 中国13亿,那么多人谁打得过啊。。。抗战8年也不是把强大的日本给活活拖成战败国。

发表于 2021-9-20 00:04 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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superdigua 发表于 2021-9-19 21:40
》》对于一个有效的国家战略,莫里森应该少说多做

莫里森说得很多做得很少吗?我觉得并非如此。 ...

不管他是不是做的对,我觉得莫是个说啥就做啥的实在人,甚至是有点轴。急了自己能蹦出来直接怼赵立坚。。。

发表于 2021-9-20 00:05 |显示全部楼层
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Surely the fellow down under will get these all sorted

发表于 2021-9-20 00:07 |显示全部楼层
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sm375 发表于 2021-9-19 23:22
这个应该就是澳洲政府的诉求,立刻就提升了在盟国中的地位,正式得到了左护法的名分。短期之内还会得到一 ...

我认为政府是选择了对执政党,或者个人最大的利益 - 说白了就是Resume好看点。
人民的利益是不存在的。

第一步,从媒体这里吹:中国就是最大的敌人。吹100遍,假的也变真的了。
然后呢, 有敌人了?那就买买买,防御啊,进攻啊弄起来。
什么钱?收税啊。
那莫里森有啥好处?Resume写上,建立全球AUKUS共同防御圈。这么好的人才,干出这么“伟大”的事业,不去美国深造可惜了。

这样看, 这种协议一看就豁然开朗了。

发表于 2021-9-20 00:11 |显示全部楼层
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ysc 发表于 2021-9-19 22:01
以色列相对比较强,但是也架不住周边人多,没事给你扔几个土炸弹啊。
而且这些矛盾看不到结局,现在是平 ...

以色列现在有核弹啦,不会有下一次了。对中国最好的解决方案也就是核威慑。
遥遥领先,谣谣领先
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发表于 2021-9-20 00:11 |显示全部楼层
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vickyvicky 发表于 2021-9-19 23:25
看了Sydney morning harold 下面的几百个评论,很欣慰,澳洲的老百姓们还是很有common sense, 基本都是觉得 ...

很多都是黄土埋到胸了,敲不了几年键盘了,不知道有生之年能不能看到澳洲核潜艇下水

发表于 2021-9-20 00:18 |显示全部楼层
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Perth好 发表于 2021-9-20 00:11
以色列现在有核弹啦,不会有下一次了。对中国最好的解决方案也就是核威慑。 ...

中国现在一心不想打仗,而且你一小国家,跟大国去搞核威慑?威慑啥?澳洲有核弹吗?敢拥有核弹吗?

现在中国要去南海建几个岛,你澳洲从达尔文派几个军舰、潜艇去看着?
然后中国马上扔一个航母过去溜达。然后呢?然后就没有然后了。 人家继续建, 毛事没有。

中国航母造的快,过几年就好了。航母可以排队了。 台湾再拖几年解决。

发表于 2021-9-20 00:20 |显示全部楼层
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本帖最后由 Perth好 于 2021-9-19 22:21 编辑
ysc 发表于 2021-9-19 22:18
中国现在一心不想打仗,而且你一小国家,跟大国去搞核威慑?威慑啥?澳洲有核弹吗?敢拥有核弹吗?

现在 ...


那解决完台湾下面就是日本澳洲了,那还真得有核弹了。。。。什么叫小国家?美国也就3亿人,英国也就不到一亿人,算不算小国家?有核弹就是大国。
遥遥领先,谣谣领先

发表于 2021-9-20 00:25 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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Perth好 发表于 2021-9-20 00:20
那解决完台湾下面就是日本澳洲了,那还真得有核弹了。。。。什么叫小国家?美国也就3亿人,英国也就不到 ...

日本没资源 没人要。
澳洲太TMD远,大哥,打仗很累的。我就算攻打下Perth,再去到东边4000公里啊。后勤都很难保障。
最有用的是印尼等国家,航行用的海峡,自然资源多多。

发表于 2021-9-20 00:26 |显示全部楼层
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ysc 发表于 2021-9-19 22:25
日本没资源 没人要。
澳洲太TMD远,大哥,打仗很累的。我就算攻打下Perth,再去到东边4000公里啊。后勤都 ...


难说,什么奇葩事干不出来。到时候发生达尔文港这类事情,搞不好就要虽远必诛了。
遥遥领先,谣谣领先
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发表于 2021-9-20 00:27 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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Perth好 发表于 2021-9-20 00:20
那解决完台湾下面就是日本澳洲了,那还真得有核弹了。。。。什么叫小国家?美国也就3亿人,英国也就不到 ...

历史证明 大国衰弱一般都是内部原因造成的,一如现在的美国内部矛盾。

这矛盾在现实的体制内看上去解决不了。

发表于 2021-9-20 00:28 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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Perth好 发表于 2021-9-20 00:26
难说,什么奇葩事干不出来。到时候发生达尔文港这类事情,搞不好就要虽远必诛了。 ...

这世界上一般都是利益为先,没好处的事情是没人做的

发表于 2021-9-20 00:29 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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本帖最后由 sm375 于 2021-9-20 00:31 编辑
ysc 发表于 2021-9-20 00:07
我认为政府是选择了对执政党,或者个人最大的利益 - 说白了就是Resume好看点。
人民的利益是不存在的。



是有个人诉求是必然的,既然站到了这个舞台上就会寻找自己的历史定位,能往舞台中间靠就尽量往中间靠。但是根据澳洲游戏规则,总理远没有美国总统权利集中,他的决策更多是个人和党伐的共同决策。他的舞台是党给他的舞台,不像美国总统一个人独享。理论上说,有利国家的就是有利选民的就是有利政党的,但我们知道其实未必是。这个游戏规则有自己的局限性,比如为选举服务,比如要妥协当前民意。但是这个规则有一定的纠错能力。长远看,理论设计上是尽量让大多数人收益。。。

莫要做的就是尽量扩大他的个人诉求与党选民和澳洲利益的最大公约数。只有这样他最后的答卷才能高分。

因为澳洲的制度,莫作为一个政客已经算是有抱负的了。好多乱七八糟的所谓民主国家的领导上台就是为了贪,那就更不值得一提了。

发表于 2021-9-20 00:30 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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Perth好 发表于 2021-9-20 00:26
难说,什么奇葩事干不出来。到时候发生达尔文港这类事情,搞不好就要虽远必诛了。 ...

打仗一如买卖,杀头的买卖有人做,亏本的买卖没人干。

跳过印尼,打达尔文干嘛?我看不到为啥啊

发表于 2021-9-20 00:33 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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sm375 发表于 2021-9-20 00:29
是有个人诉求是必然的,既然站到了这个舞台上就会寻找自己的历史定位,能往舞台中间靠就尽量往中间靠。但 ...

理论太多。
莫里森的目的就是个人利益。
电视里天天吹嘘北京怎么样怎么样,这个天天在挑衅干嘛? 目的就是建立一个假想敌。没敌人买潜艇干嘛?

这事情和金三胖一个德行。 让媒体吹吹吹。
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发表于 2021-9-20 00:37 |显示全部楼层
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买吧,挺好的一个交易。买好以后常年停在harbour的那个海事博物馆。这样又多了一个溜娃的去处

发表于 2021-9-20 00:45 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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ysc 发表于 2021-9-20 00:33
理论太多。
莫里森的目的就是个人利益。
电视里天天吹嘘北京怎么样怎么样,这个天天在挑衅干嘛? 目的就 ...

他个人无法影响媒体,他的权利被架构束缚的死死的。我觉得和北韩无可比性。

发表于 2021-9-20 00:52 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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sm375 发表于 2021-9-20 00:45
他个人无法影响媒体,他的权利被架构束缚的死死的。我觉得和北韩无可比性。 ...

哎,他现在在干嘛?
创造话题啊。。。
媒体喜欢啥? 矛盾!什么惊天大阴谋之类的大标题。有了话题就可以带节奏了。

这叫玩转媒体。和三胖,墙国控制手段不一样。
目的是一样的,让媒体帮自己宣传。

发表于 2021-9-20 00:54 |显示全部楼层
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ysc 发表于 2021-9-20 00:33
理论太多。
莫里森的目的就是个人利益。
电视里天天吹嘘北京怎么样怎么样,这个天天在挑衅干嘛? 目的就 ...

不,他的目标其实很简单,就一句话:跟着美国走,做美国的狗。

发表于 2021-9-20 00:59 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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dreaman 发表于 2021-9-20 00:54
不,他的目标其实很简单,就一句话:跟着美国走,做美国的狗。

是。
这种人思想很难改变。他死认一条心做美国跟班。

人啊,不理性的时候真的很难改。
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发表于 2021-9-20 02:14 |显示全部楼层
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本帖最后由 Hetbert 于 2021-9-20 02:22 编辑

AUKUS是18个月前澳洲开始和川皇政府谈的,今年三月澳洲才要求英国也加入。

[Sub headline] Only ten people in Britain knew about its plans to stand with Australia and the United States against Chinese aggression in the Indo-Pacific. This is how the deal was done

When the First Sea Lord was invited to a meeting at the Australian high commission in March this year, he had no idea of the magnitude of what was about to unfold. Admiral Sir Tony Radakin — described by colleagues as a “doer” — was asked by Vice-Admiral Michael Noonan, the Australian Chief of Navy, whether the British and Americans could help their ally to build a new fleet of nuclear-powered submarines.

The 12 Barracuda diesel-electric submarines that Australia had agreed to purchase from France five years earlier as part of a £47 billion contract were no longer enough to ward off the threat from China, which was pouring billions of pounds into building the world’s largest navy and fortifying islands outside its territorial waters.

They wanted ones that were faster, stealthier and with almost limitless endurance. The key was “surveillance”, according to defence sources familiar with the discussions.

“They had carried out a review and the ones they were getting were not fit for purpose. China has a lot of money but is not developed in some areas of capability,” the defence source said. The Australians wanted nuclear-powered submarines to “move quietly, sit outside a port, track movements, keep an eye on undersea cables and follow submarines in a move to curb Chinese reach in the region”, they added.

Both Britain and America not only had six decades of experience building up their own sovereign capability but were crucially in the Five Eyes intelligence-sharing partnership with Australia — unlike France — which meant they might be persuaded to give up their nuclear technology.

“That was the first contact. It was a big strategic play. He [Radakin] then came back and handed the whole thing over to [Sir Stephen] Lovegrove,” said a security source referring to the permanent secretary at that time at the Ministry of Defence. The source compared it to a scene out of the fictional John le Carré spy novels.

So began Operation Hookless — as it was codenamed inside No 10 —and the most closely guarded secret inside government in years. Only about ten people in Britain were privy to the details, including the prime minister, the foreign secretary and the defence secretary. Lovegrove, who was still the Ministry of Defence’s permanent secretary when handed the proposal, left the department to take on the job of national security adviser, making him even better placed to help carve out the deal of his career. John Bew, Johnson’s foreign policy adviser and the mastermind behind the integrated review that talked of a “tilt” towards the Indo-Pacific region, was also allowed into the fold. Those who were present were “read in”, meaning they had to sign a paper vowing not to let the secret details of the discussions out of the room.

After the initial meeting in March, the proposal was put to the Americans. “It took quite a long time to go through the American machine — it had to be discussed at the Pentagon, the state department and the energy department,” the source said. In the weeks that followed, those in the British circle believed there was a “20 per cent chance of it falling apart”.

The clock was ticking for the Australians, who warned the British government that there was a looming deadline where the costs for the French deal would quickly rack up and there would be no getting out of it. “The internal dynamics were delicate. It could easily have not come together,” said the security source.

Although initial conversations had begun around the submarines, back in No 10 an excited Johnson was keen for something much deeper. “Boris really pushed it. There was a choice about how broad it would be — was it just a technical agreement on a specific subject or is this more broad? Boris was pushing that it had to be as ambitious as possible. This was a strategic move,” a government source who was involved in the discussions said.

By the time of the G7 summit in Cornwall in June, the plans were well under way. As the French were occupied with the unfolding so-called “sausage war” over the Brexit divorce deal, Johnson, President Biden and Scott Morrison, the Australian prime minister — referred to as “ScoMo” in No 10 — thrashed out the details of a top-secret pact that would later be known as the “Aukus” defence and security alliance.

“There was a lot of noise at G7 about sausages and the EU and there was a lot of excitement around that, and it seemed odd for us that we were doing serious, serious, business in this meeting,” the government source added.

Yet they were braced for a backlash not only from China, but also from the French. A source said that Australia’s existing submarine deal with the French had put everyone in a “difficult situation”, adding: “No one had any desire to piss off the French, everyone knew it would be difficult.” Defence sources said that it was “nothing personal”, adding it was about the kit and questioned whether the French — who also have nuclear-powered submarines — would have been willing to share their sovereign capabilities with the Australians. The defence source said that it was different for the British given the fact the Australians were in the Commonwealth.

“Once you give that information you cannot get it back. You can only give it to the nations that you will be friends with for ever,” said the defence source, caveating the comment with the fact they said the UK was also extremely close to the French.

Although the rise of China was the “first order of concern” for the Australians, government sources said the pact went much deeper than Beijing and was more about the decades going forward and other security issues that could arise. “This matters in three administrations,” they said.

After the announcement of the pact this week, Lovegrove described it as “the most significant capability collaboration anywhere in the world in the past decades”. Senior figures in government have compared it to the 1958 mutual defence agreement (MDA) between President Eisenhower and Harold Macmillan, the British prime minister, and the beginning of the “special nuclear relationship” that allows the nations to exchange nuclear materials, technology and information — an agreement which continues today.

Given the importance of AUKUS, it is perhaps not surprising that Radakin — the man who brought it in — is rumoured to be one of two likely candidates for the new job as head of the armed forces.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/artic ... st-secret-dj7z5f8bh
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发表于 2021-9-20 03:21 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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从某些人鼓吹什么战争的鼓点已经敲响开始,我就知道后面的军费大单子不会少。

油水太丰厚了,我看这些个政客不会手上不粘满了油水。

发表于 2021-9-20 03:50 |显示全部楼层
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wdxzd521 发表于 2021-9-19 19:08
莫里森现在开心死了,终于和这俩玩到一起了,终于把我当回事儿了

The fellow from down under终于扬眉吐气了

发表于 2021-9-20 04:53 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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就喜欢看ID们对澳洲气急败坏口诛笔伐上蹿下跳却又无可奈何的样子

2019年度勋章

发表于 2021-9-20 06:20 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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sm375 发表于 2021-9-20 00:04
不管他是不是做的对,我觉得莫是个说啥就做啥的实在人,甚至是有点轴。急了自己能蹦出来直接怼赵立坚。。 ...

陆克文是中国支持派。哈哈。
舆论自由意味着容忍自己不喜欢的言论的存在。
我的观点当然可能是错误的。可以拉黑,无权屏蔽。
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发表于 2021-9-20 06:22 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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e-top 发表于 2021-9-19 14:28
别问我啊

跟据smh的观点,你应该从陆克文开始一个个首相问起

你也是搞笑。之前也没人问为啥法国潜艇不好,你说了那么一大堆我还以为你是啥内部人事呢。这里要是能问陆克文谁还上论坛呀

发表于 2021-9-20 07:41 |显示全部楼层
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本届政府 全球笑话

发表于 2021-9-20 08:04 |显示全部楼层
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莫总就是澳洲的川普,不把诚信当回事

发表于 2021-9-20 09:10 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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这话听着好像是在影射中共!小心中共被清理门户!

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