求扫盲-投资房负扣税问题

idontknow

之前看过一个帖子是关于投资房的，好像是发贴的同学比较困惑每个月往投资房倒贴是否是对的投资。

所以我想问一下，对于一个家庭来说，多少年收入就需要买投资房来作负口税呢？ 前提是没小孩。

想问一下坛子里的专家，如果一个家庭收入10万，税前，没小孩，有房贷大约30万，还用得着买投资房做负扣税吗？

分分等待，还请各位专家帮助扫盲

ialienam

恩....property investment這可能是穩賺不賠??
如果你買進來$500k, 賣出去$400k, 你就還是虧$100k?? 不過贊成有能力都早一點做最好...

Anyway...negative gearing只是ato讓"所有"investment (這裡including all investments, e.g. shares)可以讓investor"少虧一些". 所以negative gearing不是只有investment property才能做的.

所以樓主你要問你自己.

你是要省稅, 還是要賺錢? e.g. 你賺$100k, 只是想少交點稅.
還是想多賺錢??

1. 要省稅, 找個好accountant幫你.  Donation給charity也可以tax-deduction etc etc..

2. 要賺錢的話.. 就當然要看自己的情況, 好好想一想哪個investment比較適合你等等.. 還有很多其他不同的投資你有沒有考慮? 有沒有其他投資更適合你的lifestyle and needs?
e.g. 如果你打算過不久有小孩, 馬上需要一大筆cash.. Property會最適合你嗎?? (it normally takes longer to sell your investment property) 一個是更全方位的考量.

我主要想說的是, 買房投資不是為了"negative gearing"/ (省稅)才去買~
如果能的話, you should aim for postive gearing or neutral gearing.
當然你今天要是有看到不錯的房子, 你覺得會賺 那當然可以考慮. 而不是考慮我要拿多少tax回來.

前不久也有人討論到, 像depreciation其實好像你最後還是要還回去or something. (這你在去問問專業的accountant).

有錢人投資第一考量是不會去想能退回多少稅, 是想說這投資能不能讓我賺錢 (and opportunity costs).

你也要看你自己情況, 能有剩下錢嗎? 還是就賺多少就花多少?

Hope it helps you.

p.s 投資前也最好找個專家尋問.

idontknow

其实我本人觉得POSITIVE GEARING 挺好的，也不用倒贴钱，OWNER压力会小一些，如果房子增值好就更好了，不知道这样的想法对我们这样收入的家庭和不合适。

但是有那么多人喜欢NEGATIVE GEARING的房子，以为有很大好处在里面，好像以前有人说过，租金好的房子增值慢，租金一般的增值好（比如好区的房子）

原帖由 ialienam 于 2011-1-10 14:08 发表
恩....property investment這可能是穩賺不賠??
如果你買進來$500k, 賣出去$400k, 你就還是虧$100k?? 不過贊成有能力都早一點做最好...

Anyway...negative gearing只是ato讓"所有"investment (這裡including all inv ...

[ 本帖最后由 idontknow 于 2011-1-10 14:34 编辑 ]

ialienam

其實樓主, 你的家庭情況和negative or positive  gearing到不要想太多.
很多喜歡negative gearing, 也是非不得已... 現在誰能在sydney or mel or brisbane等metro area找到positive gearing.
所以你要知道, 他們為何喜歡"negative gearing"? 而他們講的都對嗎? 很多人誤會, 以為每年付出去的錢都能拿回來.. 如果是這樣, 全澳洲人都改做房地產好了.

"租金好的房子增值慢，租金一般的增值好"
你就要看你要的是什投資 => Income vs Growth.
一般會這樣說就是指good rental income = apt & unit這類的 (close to transport etc etc).
good growth = house這類的.. land是你的, capital growth也比較好, 但也一般來說rental income (yield %)會比apt等差.

所以才會有上面這樣一說. 當然不是所有的房子都這樣.
哪一個適合你?? 就不只看你的income, 還有很多因素要考慮. 你的surplus cash多不多? 你更多family factors, 就像前面說的, 你會不會有需要大量cash ready etc?
所以我才會說不要把"negative gearing"/退稅當作是你買投資房的唯一考慮..

真要單純只是想退稅, 有太多不同的東西能做.. 更省時, 省錢..
所以才會推薦你找一個專家先聊聊你的需求.

rayki

不是很懂了。但是NEGATIVE GEARING 。也仅仅是ATO补亏损的税款。。  肯定不是保赚不赔的。。  相当于报税时候的deduction 绝对不是offset

小妞爷他爸

原帖由 idontknow 于 2011-1-10 14:31 发表
其实我本人觉得POSITIVE GEARING 挺好的，也不用倒贴钱，OWNER压力会小一些，如果房子增值好就更好了，不知道这样的想法对我们这样收入的家庭和不合适。

但是有那么多人喜欢NEGATIVE GEARING的房子，以为有很大好处在里面，好 ...

这说对了一半

投资资金不是很强大的，要靠租金回报率来KEEP 你的投资。所以要买容易出租，并且租金好的。比如人多的旺区

投资资金很大的，那么租金低点，没关系，只要自己能HOLD住。比如租金回报率相对低的区。但是升值不错的区。

idontknow

有道理。

原帖由 小妞爷他爸 于 2011-1-10 17:03 发表



这说对了一半

投资资金不是很强大的，要靠租金回报率来KEEP 你的投资。所以要买容易出租，并且租金好的。比如人多的旺区

投资资金很大的，那么租金低点，没关系，只要自己能HOLD住。比如租金回报率相对低的区。但是升值 ...

idontknow

POSITIVE GEARING 是不是指房租可以cover贷款，strata, 水费，乱七八糟的杂费，owner就是一分钱也不用出，对不对呢？

click

是的，还要算上保险、维修、空置等一切和买这个房子的相关因素。
如果投入实际资金进去，我觉得起码还要算上这些资金的成本。

原帖由 idontknow 于 2011-1-10 17:39 发表
POSITIVE GEARING 是不是指房租可以cover贷款，strata, 水费，乱七八糟的杂费，owner就是一分钱也不用出，对不对呢？

ialienam

negative gearing = yield/rental income < all your expenses (including interest, strata, insurance, and water etc etc) -> loss

Neutral gearing = yield/rental income = all your expenses -> break even

Positive gearing = yield/rental income > all your expenses -> profit

click

还有一种，yield/rental income < all your expenses，但是如果算上负扣税拿回来的钱，也可以说是Positive gearing了，因为基本上也不用自己掏钱。

idontknow

........ 如此看来在悉尼找一个Neutral gearing 和 Positive gearing的房子真不容易

哪位同志在2008-2010年找到并且拥有了这样的房子，求分享探房经验

原帖由 ialienam 于 2011-1-10 19:03 发表
negative gearing = yield/rental income < all your expenses (including interest, strata, insurance, and water etc etc) -> loss

Neutral gearing = yield/rental income = all your expenses -> break even

...

老杏

原帖由 idontknow 于 2011-1-10 20:55 发表
........ 如此看来在悉尼找一个Neutral gearing 和 Positive gearing的房子真不容易

哪位同志在2008-2010年找到并且拥有了这样的房子，求分享探房经验

...

只要多付首付，是个房子都能positive gearing

idontknow

怎么分析得这么精辟呢？

90%首付，绝对positive

羊毛出羊身上

原帖由 clur 于 2011-1-10 20:58 发表


只要多付首付，是个房子都能positive gearing

86足迹

原帖由 click 于 2011-1-10 19:07 发表
还有一种，yield/rental income < all your expenses，但是如果算上负扣税拿回来的钱，也可以说是Positive gearing了，因为基本上也不用自己掏钱。

参见2楼。

ialienam

e.....positive gearing means you are making a "profit".

你都虧錢了, 如何賺錢???  ATO沒這好心把?

负扣税 = 你虧錢哩~~
你虧$1, 最多也只能拿回46.5c.. 你還是虧53.5c~~ 你如何不用自己掏錢???

Depreciation, 上次不是別帖都討論過, 最後還是要算回cost base??

wdmznzd

负扣税只能是用在以时间换取房产增值的空间上，在短期内减少你的亏损，而不能做为投资房地产的主要目的。负扣税本身就是建立在你的投资是净亏损的情况下，所以为了那点退税而承担高负债的风险是不合理的投资计划。

kuxxc

原帖由 idontknow 于 2011-1-10 20:55 发表
........ 如此看来在悉尼找一个Neutral gearing 和 Positive gearing的房子真不容易

哪位同志在2008-2010年找到并且拥有了这样的房子，求分享探房经验

...

谨慎买一个需要装修的就有可能啊

newtoall

原帖由 idontknow 于 2011-1-10 20:55 发表
........ 如此看来在悉尼找一个Neutral gearing 和 Positive gearing的房子真不容易
哪位同志在2008-2010年找到并且拥有了这样的房子，求分享探房经验  ...

I have one found and purchased in 2010, but in  Melbourne.  But what experience do you want to learn apart from bookmarking all the search criteria and keeping looking them everyday ?

idontknow

先要恭喜你，顺便问一下，您的房子所在的区域如何？

原帖由 newtoall 于 2011-1-11 07:28 发表

I have one found and purchased in 2010, but in  Melbourne.  But what experience do you want to learn apart from bookmarking all the search criteria and keeping looking them everyday ?

idontknow

朋友说，如果不懂building这方面的事，或者没有认识的人做这个行业，装修要花很大成本，不划算，还不如买个条件好点的房子。

原帖由 kuxxc 于 2011-1-11 00:15 发表


谨慎买一个需要装修的就有可能啊

newtoall

原帖由 idontknow 于 2011-1-11 09:41 发表
先要恭喜你，顺便问一下，您的房子所在的区域如何？

It is in Melbourne CBD, a small 2 bedroom apartment.  

The building is not managed by unilodge, not by a hotel management, does not have swimming pool and gym (reduced the body corp fee),  does not have any restrictions but without car park.  

Not worth con-graduation as it only offers limited growth (i think) even no growth and it freezes a lot of my cash. (As mentioned by ialienam in this thread that is an opportunity cost "是想說這投資能不能讓我賺錢 (and opportunity costs)."). --

I bought this one just by accident. When I looked around and the owner was in such an urgent sale and I offered a lowest price which I thought they would not sell but a real offer.

My understanding of property is it is less liquid as others and I do not like CBD area (because of it population density and noisy life style) but strategically  I think I should have one spot in every area with good schools.  Read this thread in oursteps http://www.oursteps.com.au/bbs/v ... &extra=page%3D1

[ 本帖最后由 newtoall 于 2011-1-11 11:03 编辑 ]

kuxxc

原帖由 idontknow 于 2011-1-11 09:43 发表
朋友说，如果不懂building这方面的事，或者没有认识的人做这个行业，装修要花很大成本，不划算，还不如买个条件好点的房子。

还是买楼花最省心。。。

kuxxc

原帖由 newtoall 于 2011-1-11 10:42 发表

It is in Melbourne CBD, a small 2 bedroom apartment.  

The building is not managed by unilodge, not by a hotel management, does not have swimming pool and gym (reduced the body corp fee),  does not  ...

Why do you say it offers little or no growth?

newtoall

原帖由 kuxxc 于 2011-1-11 11:31 发表
Why do you say it offers little or no growth?

Because
  1. the growth aka : capital gain can only be realized after the sale

  2. It is very hard to sell city apartment (most freq) I saw those listings online for months even the one I purchased listed there for 6 months and finally the owner became urgent in sell.
     (Well however, every rule has exceptions)
  
  3. Apartments not like house does not offer a kind of uniqueness and there are many to sell in one building thus hard to sell yours unless the price is attractive enough.


  4. Most owner occupiers does not prefer city only small amount and finally they will move out of the CBD at some stage or have dual occupancy.

  and more ... by others :)

Anyhow be very very very very cautious on apartment purchase.

Do not trust those price listed online and you need do your own research to decide what is worth.
If possible, do not purchase apartments unless you have very strong reason or you like it by yourself :)

kuxxc

All valid reasons however these disadvantages are easily offset by a low purchase price.

The return in cbd Melb/Syd apartment is not great because there is an over supply. However you can always find tenants for inner city apartments.

If you bought it at bargain basement price, the money has alreay been made. So why not sell it after 1 year!

In recent times (last 2-3 years), as investments, many apartments that are close to city and amenities outperform houses. But yes you need to do your research and pick the right one.

newtoall

# All valid reasons however these disadvantages are easily offset by a low purchase price.

Agree this but it is not easy (actually very very hard) to find a low purchase price property (not unilodge and not hotel managed and low body corp fee)  and also, what is low really depends on everyone situation.  Certainly those formulas helps to find some basic neutral or positive.

Compared with CBD apartments, I found houses in bad areas closed to city actually performs much better in overall terms.

# City apartments are easy to lease.

Em.. agree and not agree, it really depends on the rental price as well.   I found it is not easy to lease and only easy to lease in certain period and only cater for certain group of people.

ialienam

不管做什投資, 自己一定要做些research & homework.

找專家他們也不能guarantee你一定賺大錢. 而老實說, 真正最會賺錢的他們一定先去做.

誰瘋了.. 免費告訴你好地段or好股票 讓你先去買.

wmai10000

买了投资房的朋友们都知道，投资房前期可是要砸钱的~~一大笔哦~~~律师费啊，中介费啊，保险啊~~政府的税啊，说不定还要修修补补的费用，再加上空置的费用，我个人感觉头几年都是在亏钱~~

wmai10000

一句话，放长线……