问有经验的同学一个关于J２EE consultant的问题

jingsun

哈哈，Consultant + Architect + Developer + Tester， 重任在身啊

smartmonkey

原帖由 Imperial 于 2007-5-19 08:44 发表
看不太懂大家的讨论

我现在做的项目是公司一个内部项目,建一个新的销售系统,
应该说投资也不少,比如说Team每人发T-Shirt, 每周去公费BBQ一次什么的,

Team 里边现在懂技术的暂时只有两人,其他人都是Sales/经 ...

We are talking about agile.

It seems you are working in a start up company. It's good chance you can learn every role in the project. but the drawback is you are on your own.
Good luck to your project.

Consultant + Architect + Developer + Tester sounds great.

fighting010605

you are all so experience. !!

zzgirl

原帖由 zzgirl 于 2007-5-18 23:00 发表



怪我怪我,英文不好,让大家都误解了.

关于build scripts 重新修改的项目,是因为原有的太糟糕了,而且每次build的时候因为Unit test运行,要花很长时间.所以有了这么个事儿. 我的意思也就是,因为之前不细致的 ...

看来我的表达能很有问题....
我们的程序员,用Junit和selenium写Unit test,functional test 和integration tests.你提的这些都有,但以我的经验,都不保险. Refactorying最恐怖的在于,不像story,有针对性,也不involve tester,所以即使有了问题,也可能隐藏在那里很久了,或是偶然发现的.automation test并不能保证质量,这是我想表达的意思.

另外,你说" I think tester never trust developer",我是很不同意的. 信任问题,也是我发现在澳洲和中国的最大区别,外国人和亚洲人最大的区别.并不是说,信任程序员就不测了.而是在中国,或者很多亚裔程序员,都习惯性说,我编完了,剩下的测试任务就是测试人员的了,随便你怎么测.但是很多外国程序员会认为,程序质量也有他们自己的责任,会尽力配合测序员一起找到工作.
不过,作为tester可以引导程序员的,这也是我的责任之一.

UAT是user的.

smartmonkey

I don't understand why refactorying is dangerous. if the test coverage is high. each unit are tested, developers need to make sure all unit tests pass after refactorying. automation test并不能保证质量 could you give me an example?

sorry, my bad. I mean tester don't trust developer to test the functionality they wrote because they always use their logic to test. tester will do some negative testing.

I think UAT is your responsibility.

zzgirl: do you like agile? it seems to me most QAs don't like agile.

zzgirl

I love agile. No document, just talking. how Fantastic!

test coverage是很有学问的,比如一个系统有A B C Unit,你的test涵盖A,B,C,AB,AC,BC,ABC? 另外,很多时候,程序员写的测试,并不有效.测试数据与实际情况有很多差距.

比如原有X+Y=Z,现在增加一个A,要改成A+X+Y=Z. 公式是没错,可是程序员对A的理解错了.这应该是对需求定义不清吧,也不能算是test不有效.一时没有更好的例子,容我再想想.

UAT---user acceptance test. tester is not the user, how could tester do it? 不过,现实中,我也做UAT的,相当于不同的环境重新做一次system test,很没意思.真正的用户和tester看的方面肯定是不同的.

smartmonkey

I still don't understand your example.

there is no user for you to test UAT. what do you think who will test UAT?

zzgirl

真正的UAT就是用户做的,我之前的公司,UAT就是由用户自己来做.充分involve customer不也是agile的一部分嘛. 而且只有用户才知道他们真正需要什么.

如果还是tester来做,您说,UAT和System test有什么区别呢?

kawara

原帖由 zzgirl 于 2007-5-20 21:01 发表
真正的UAT就是用户做的,我之前的公司,UAT就是由用户自己来做.充分involve customer不也是agile的一部分嘛. 而且只有用户才知道他们真正需要什么.

如果还是tester来做,您说,UAT和System test有什么区别呢?

user acceptence tast

smartmonkey

原帖由 zzgirl 于 2007-5-20 21:01 发表
真正的UAT就是用户做的,我之前的公司,UAT就是由用户自己来做.充分involve customer不也是agile的一部分嘛. 而且只有用户才知道他们真正需要什么.

如果还是tester来做,您说,UAT和System test有什么区别呢?

1. 真正的UAT就是用户做的,UAT就是由用户自己来做.充分involve customer不也是agile的一部分嘛
It depends. involve customer is because we need to understand the requirement if we have question.
usually UAT is tested by testers. after tester make sure it work, demostrate to user/customer and sign off the story.
users will test the production test.

for example gmail/office/windows, before they have beta version, they have tester to test the functionalities(UAT). and users will test the beta version(PT).

2. 而且只有用户才知道他们真正需要什么.
The story is very simple. if we need detail, we will ask BA. if BA is not sure. we need to discuss with BA and Customer. Customer not necessarily is a user.

For example, internet-banking, we are the user. the customer is business people who might or might not be a user.

3. 如果还是tester来做,您说,UAT和System test有什么区别呢?
I know what's different in waterfall project but no agile project.
waterfall: tester only can do UAT because Customer/User is not available to QA during the whole process.
agile: when you demonstrate the story to the customer/user, if they accept the outcome then UAT become part of System test. don't you think? (System test pass => UAT pass)


4. go back to the topic of refactoring.
As I understand, the objective of refactoring is to reduce duplication. usually we write test first, implement it and let the test pass, finally refactor the code which will reduce the duplication.
X+Y=Z,现在增加一个A,要改成A+X+Y=Z is not refactorying.

actually, I want to do more testing in my next project. happy to discuss more testing.
I went to a presentation about testing on Saturday. they talk about selenium and sahi which are open source web test tools. you can try it out.

zzgirl

Hey SmartMoney,
If (System test pass => UAT pass), why we need do UAT again? it will pass anyway. I think UAT and System test is focused on different stuff. And everytime i will think about usability in my system test. but what's the different between UAT and system test? When we say "demonstrate the story to the customer/user", yes,tester can excute those test, BA can, anybody can, but only customer can say"good, it passed." that's the person who accept it. i am not talk about the excuting person.

my sample is not about refactoring, is about a failed story with passed Unit test.

Actually, I don't think system or UAT, those names are important. the main thing is to satisfy customer. for now, BA is my cusomer, once they are happy, i am happy. the only thing i do is, that tell them something might upset them, but still depends on themselves, coz i am not a customer.

sometimes i feel guity to upset ppl, i am struggling about it now. this is the topic i am going to discuss with my supervior...

smartmonkey

You say the customer/user is available to you. so when developers finish a story, the customer/user and BA will sign off the card if the they accept that.

wikipedia: User Acceptance Testing (UAT) is a process to obtain confirmation by a Subject Matter Expert (SME), preferably the owner or client of the object under test, through trial or review, that the modification or addition meets mutually agreed-upon requirements.

selenium website: System functional testing. Create regression tests to verify application functionality and user acceptance.

when story is finish, customer accept the functionality. so I don't know why customer/user need to do UAT again.

you're right, name is not important.
how do you upset ppl?
and could you tell me what's the pains in your project?
since I have nothing to do at the moment, maybe this discussion help me not feel bored.

zzgirl

Good Day.
I discussed with two testers this morning about the differences between UAT and system test.
One is a consultant. What he said is that they are the same sometimes. And even UAT will kind of include system test coz you need consider those negative possibilities to break the system as a user. I don’t agree this part, of course. However, I can understand that. As a consultant, to be safe he need put anything he can think of into UAT. The reason is lack of trust. And this is the way my team player tries to follow.
Another is my previous supervisor. He said, foundationally they are the same. But the expected results are different. A tester will say “passed” in system test. User will say “passed” in UAT. So the expectations are different in both. It’s not about who run the testing, it’s about who says “it passed”. If tester does UAT, then what’s the difference between system test and UAT? No.

My pain is I found too many issues around my story. And I am not sure whether they need to be fixed or not. I know it’s not my task to decide, but I feel guilty to bother developers and BAs all the time, especially, BAs. I did ask BA, is that good to bother them so much, and my supervisor. They think I am doing the right thing. I am trying to think as a BA, but it’s so hard, and I am not the person to make decision. It’s painful.

smartmonkey

As a developer, I don't mind to help tester to understand the functionality.

Ideal, we(BA/QA/Developer/Maybe Client) should discuss the story before dive into coding.
after the development finish, developer should demonstrate the functionality to the QA/BA.
we should sign off the story together. (at that point, user accept the functionality)

if you found too many issues around your story, talk to developer first, if they can't help. ask BA.
I suggest you address this issue in the stand-up meeting.

zzgirl

what you said does happen here.

My pain is the issues i found is too details and not clear in the story. but sometimes they are important for user. I said i felt"guilty", but that's my job, i have to do it. I just want to find a better way to improve it. Well, "Consider cost vs. value in all the testing activity" How to measure them is my current problem.

smartmonkey

Just today I knew acceptance criteria is created by BA.
if your acceptance criteria is not clear, you should ask BA.
It's BA's job to create acceptance criteria into wiki before the iteration meeting.

one minute ago, I asked a BA.
he told me, they will create acceptance criteria once the story(not master story) are define.
so the developer could do TDD based on the acceptance criteria.
at last, the QA will test the story based on the acceptance criteria.
if QA has any issue, he/she should discuss with BA. that might create a new story/bug if anything comes up.

zzgirl

I know it.
In XP book, Tester need help BA work out those acceptance test. And different companies are different. the one i worked before, I always sat with BA and work out the story and acceptance criteria. but now, i will re-write the whole story and acceptance criteria, then confirm with BA. they are too busy.
Well, never mind. my leader has no idea as well.
I am reading James Bech's Rapid testing now. it's quite interesting. if you are in Mel, you can go and have a look.

Good luck.

smartmonkey

The pain is different people do different thing.  

interesting class, not in Mel right now.
maybe you can share some information after the class.

Good luck to your project too.

zzgirl

I didn't see anybody interested here. maybe not.