自住转投资，租金如正好和利息费用相抵，这样避税，可行吗？

ansonsy

我想把自住房转成投资，我现在用的是stgeorge redraw account, 我已经多还了不少钱，但是是在可以redraw 的那部分，没有付进lump sum,如果我把多付的钱取走，回国用，那么当我的租金和利息正好相抵时，我不是就可以不要为租金收入交税呢？
还是像有的同学说的那样，只有offset account可以把取出钱后，多付的利息作相关抵扣可以?

[ 本帖最后由 ansonsy 于 2010-12-8 13:36 编辑 ]

kuxxc

No. If you redraw from your loan account for personal use, the interest on the redraw portion is not tax-deductible. You'll be required to work out the interest proportionately - what percentage attributes to original home loan (deductible), what percentage attributes to the newly redrawn amount (not deductible).

It's unfortunate that once you pay down your redrawable loan, the deductibility of that paid-down portion is no longer available if you later redraw it for personal use. That is why offset account is a bit more useful in this circumstances.

You can redraw it for business use and still get deduction tho., if that business generates income.

ansonsy

In this case, can I refinance and change it into offset account?

flyspirit

也是不行， refinance出来的钱要用于投资才行。

ansonsy

refinance出来的钱要用于投资才行。

So does it mean I can redraw money to buy another investment property, will this be tax deductible? I heard from somone, i can redraw funds  from loan redraw account to use as deposite for investment property.

kuxxc

Yes this can be done.

It's not necessary but I'll suggest you separate the two activities and get a Line of Credit account with the redrawable equity (hence closing off the redrawable amount on your home loan) and use LOC to finance your new project. Not necessary but recommended as it's a lot more convenient that way.

kuxxc

I said "Not necessary" assuming the loan is now an investment loan since you were going to rent the property out. But it's absolutely necessary if you still live in that house...

ansonsy

谢谢你，可惜我目前没有分给你，白条
我不懂什么是line of credit account,
我今天问broke，　他说是可以的，说什么我这个loan account带有offset function,
但是我怕他也不是很清楚，其实我这个loan account, 还贷的钱会进入lump sump payment,
据说这个就还到贷款拿不出来了，即使是多还的。
还有的钱可以不进去lump sump， 它就可以在offset功能里抵利息，但是我要用就能随时转到transcation account.

我这样的account能勉强算offset account吗

snowolivia

同问

ZACLW

原帖由 ansonsy 于 2010-12-8 12:55 发表
我想把自住房转成投资，我现在用的是stgeorge redraw account, 我已经多还了不少钱，但是是在可以redraw 的那部分，没有付进lump sum,如果我把多付的钱取走，回国用，那么当我的租金和利息正好相抵时，我不是就可以不要为租金收 ...

LZ逻辑有问题：

１，你现在自住贷的多少钱，就只能抵多少税的钱。
２，如果租金和利息抵了，那还避什么税？

kuxxc

原帖由 ansonsy 于 2010-12-8 22:16 发表
谢谢你，可惜我目前没有分给你，白条
我不懂什么是line of credit account,
我今天问broke，　他说是可以的，说什么我这个loan account带有offset function,
但是我怕他也不是很清楚，其实我这个loan account, 还贷的钱会进入l ...

>我不懂什么是line of credit account,

LOC is just another loan account. But you can do anything you want with it - pay for deposit of a new house, buy shares, buy a new BMW etc. It's just like a very big credit card.


>我今天问broke，　他说是可以的，说什么我这个loan account带有offset function,

你是问"可以"什么？基本上你的户口所有功能都齐全了。就是你要是把过去多交的钱拿出来用的话，那笔钱进而导致的利息是看你取钱的目的来决定是不是tax deductible.

如果是 tax deductible 的话，要考虑应不应该和目前的 home loan 混用 (if you just redraw now you'll be 混用ing it) 。因为要是 home loan 是自住房，混用起来要算出那一部分的利息是 tax deductible 那一部分不是 tax deductible 的话会很多麻烦。

>但是我怕他也不是很清楚，其实我这个loan account, 还贷的钱会进入lump sump payment,
据说这个就还到贷款拿不出来了，即使是多还的。

Correct

>还有的钱可以不进去lump sump， 它就可以在offset功能里抵利息，但是我要用就能随时转到transcation account.

Correct

>我这样的account能勉强算offset account吗

That's what an offset account is. Money in the offset account (i.e. non lumpsump) is offset against the remaining balance in the lumpsump, thereby reducing chargeable interest. But the money in the offset is available for  you to use.

kuxxc

今天心情好多写几句。。。
Say ths situation - assuming that you're not renting the residence out:

Currently:
Home loan ("lump sum"): $300000 (you owe bank)
Offset: $100000  (your own money)
Now effectively you're paying interest on $200000. not tax deductible.

Tell the bank you will pay $100000 towards your home loan, but you also want $100000 LOC.
If it's approved (should be OK because it doesn't affect your affordability) this will become

Home Loan: $200000 (you owe bank)
Offset: $0  (you no longer have any cash here)
LOC: $0 but can borrow at will for any purpose up to $100,000. This account will be secured against your home together with your home loan lumpsump account.


If you say tomorrow buy a new investment house and pay $100000 deposit with the LOC, you'll end up with
Home Loan: $200000 (you owe bank) - interest not deductible if you live in this house
Offset: $0  (you no longer have any cash here)
LOC: $100000 -  interest is deductible

Clean and tidy.

The way to maximise your interest deductibility, from this point onwards, all your spare cash can be parked at the offset, and when it reach a sizeable figure (say 20000), do the same thing again and increase the LOC limit to $120000.

---

If you don't arrange it like above and simply take money out of Offset, then you end up with this:

Home loan lump sump: $300000 (you owe bank)
Offset: $0  (you used it)

Now you're paying interest on $300000. That interest is NOT deductible because the whole $300,000 is still a loan on your private residence.


p.s.: I said before regarding “Interst is raised on that $300,000, on which 100k is deductible (because you used it to buy investment property), 200k is not (because it's your residence).” - this is not correct. This is a scenario for redrawable home loan (where you take money out of the "lump sum"). It's a different loan account type so we do it in another discussion perhaps.

[ 本帖最后由 kuxxc 于 2010-12-9 12:18 编辑 ]

atm

ls的例子很清晰，但仍有疑问就是，offset和loc听起来差不多的效果，那最主要的区别是什么？除了计算方便

kuxxc

Actually I'm wrong in some points and have made correction abvoe.

If you take money out of offset, all interest for $300,000 in the home loan is not tax deductible because that $300,000 is still entirely a loan for the residence.

Structuring your loans properly is very important. Our tax system is complex (and very high tax!) and getting it right at the beginning can save you a lot of headache later, and in some cases, a lot of money in terms of deduction. The general rule is:

1. Put all spare cash towards non deductible loan first. credit card first, then home loan (when ccard is $0), then LOC.
2. Borrow to pay for income generating things
3. No need to pay down the LOC - let the balance grow, until you've paid off everything non deductible
4. Keep things simple and separate personal activities from business activities (i.e. do not service your BMW with money in LOC (but ok to do that for your removalist truck. See the difference?)

LOC doesn't have a minimum monthly repayment. The bank is happy to add the LOC interest onto the LOC account. All you need to do is keep the total balance within the limit.  

Over time your LOC balance will be a lot bigger than your Home loan., which is good news, as by then you probably have two or three houses... it's fantastic stuff!

[ 本帖最后由 kuxxc 于 2010-12-9 11:59 编辑 ]

qichxi

关注

flyspirit

原帖由 kuxxc 于 2010-12-9 11:25 发表
Actually I'm wrong in some points and have made correction abvoe.

If you take money out of offset, all interest for $300,000 in the home loan is not tax deductible because that $300,000 is still enti ...

说的很好，受益菲浅。

flyspirit

The is a good strategy if I want to keep the first home as my PPOR.

But what if I want to change the PPOR to IP later?

Home Loan: $200000 (you owe bank) - interest not deductible if you live in this house
Offset: $0  (you no longer have any cash here)
LOC: $100000 -  interest is deductible because I used this money to fund IP 1

Then, I sold the IP 1, now

Home Loan: $200000
Offset: $0
LOC: $0 (can borrow up to $100,000)

At this point I decide to change PPOR to IP 2, how can I maximize my tax benefit?

kuxxc

原帖由 flyspirit 于 2010-12-10 10:18 发表
The is a good strategy if I want to keep the first home as my PPOR.

But what if I want to change the PPOR to IP later?

Home Loan: $200000 (you owe bank) - interest not deductible if you live in thi ...

You meant you have bought and IP (second house), sold it (hence pay back LOC), then want to convert PPOR to IP?

In that case there's nothing to do because it seems you no longer have a PPOR and you no longer have a non-tax deductible loan. The only debt you now have is $200k and interest on the entire $200k will become deductible.

flyspirit

原帖由 kuxxc 于 2010-12-10 12:08 发表


You meant you have bought and IP (second house), sold it (hence pay back LOC), then want to convert PPOR to IP?

Yes, I mean that.

You meant you have bought and IP (second house), sold it (hence pay back LOC), then want to convert PPOR to IP?

In that case there's nothing to do because it seems you no longer have a PPOR and you no longer have a non-tax deductible loan. The only debt you now have is $200k and interest on the entire $200k will become deductible.

I mean is it possible for me to deduct against $300k instead of $200k? Because at very beginning I have:

Home loan ("lump sum"): $300000 (you owe bank)
Offset: $100000  (your own money)

In order to finance IP 1, I move the money from offset to loan and reduce it to $200k. Now I sold IP 1 and want to change PPOR to IP 2. Can I increase my home loan from $200k to $300k and put $100,000 back to offset?

kuxxc

flyspirit,

>In order to finance IP 1, I move the money from offset to loan and reduce it to $200k. Now I sold IP 1 and want to change PPOR to IP 2. Can I increase my home loan from $200k to $300k and put $100,000 back to offset?

As it stands, the balances are
Homeloan account: $200000
Offset: $0
LOC: $0 (can withdraw up to $100000)

This $300k limit is already secured against your PPOR. Your house need to be worth a lot more before you can refinance.

But say your house is worth $500,000, and you can service 80%, then the bank will be happy to lend you a total of $400k. You can indeed increase your LOC to $200k. Still, until you invest again, there's no extra interest payment.

You can take money out of LOC and put it in offset, but that achieves nothing...

[ 本帖最后由 kuxxc 于 2010-12-10 12:38 编辑 ]

flyspirit

Put it this way.  after I sold my first IP 1, I have

Home loan account: $200,000
Offset: $0
LOC: $0 (can withdraw up to $100,000)

Then I want buy another PPOR and change current PPOR to IP. If I use LOC to fund second PPOR it is not deductible.

But if I didn't refinance my home loan to fund IP 1, I have $300k deductible because they are the loan of my first PPOR which will be change to IP.

The purpose is to identify if I fund my IP this way, will that be decrease the tax benefit in future if I change my PPOR to IP and buy a new PPOR

kuxxc

Correct.

If you intend to convert PPOR to IP you should leave it as $300k., and fund your short-hold IP with your own cash (offset), but try to use as little as possible and borrow as much as possible. This is a classic benefit of an offset account.

flyspirit

Thanks for clarifying

kuxxc

So going back to Ansonsy's question, judging by the info in #1 and #8, I think if by "redraw 部分" you meant an offset account, indeed you can withdraw the money from the offset account and send it back to China, and the entire loan will be tax deductible once you convert your residence to an investment property.

I can't see any problem with it because  your loan statement won't show the movement of the redrawing amount. The loan has not fluctuate much apart from monthly repayment, just that the bank happens to give you some discount on interest because you have a deposit somewhere with them (in the offset account).

But perhaps you should verify this with your accountant instead of taking answers from the forum.

ansonsy

原帖由 ZACLW 于 2010-12-8 23:20 发表

LZ逻辑有问题：

１，你现在自住贷的多少钱，就只能抵多少税的钱。
２，如果租金和利息抵了，那还避什么税？

1。 假设我50万的房子， 我当时办贷款时，贷了40万，到现在银行认定我还了5万进入loan lump sump， 另外我有30万还款进入了
可以redraw的部分。目前银行发给我的信上，仍然写我要每月至少还 35万所产生的利息，但是实际上已行每月， 只Charge我剩下所欠的5万。 我这个是st.george basic home loan, 我的broker说是带有offset功能的，但我自己刚才看了下，银行写了没有100%offest, 只是可以redraw.

2. 我的问题是我有可能要离开澳洲回国，这样我就要把这套自住房当作投资房租出去。　我就想如果我把我多放进去的３０万取走，　带回国。这样我就欠银行３５万，以这个３５万所产生的利息加上其他租赁所产生的费用，　应该差不多和房客付的租金，相抵。这样我在澳洲就是０收入，如果在国内我也不工作，我就不用交税

ansonsy

但是如果ａｔｏ认定我就欠５万了，另外３０万取走也不行，那我不是就将面临，　明明交了３０万的贷款利息，　却只能有５万贷款利息能和租金ｄｅｄｕｃｔｉｂｌｅ
房租收入大于贷款利息和其他费用，而要给ａｔｏ交税了吗？

但是我比较想不通的是，　这个３０万既然我能ｒｅｄｒａｗ就表示我能随便花，
如果我是赌博输了这３０万，也就是说３０万再不属于我了，难道政府还认为我房子只欠
５万了，只能用５万取deductible 再此同时我却要交３５万贷款利息？是不是太惨了亚

click

但是我比较想不通的是，　这个３０万既然我能ｒｅｄｒａｗ就表示我能随便花，
如果我是赌博输了这３０万，也就是说３０万再不属于我了，难道政府还认为我房子只欠
５万了，只能用５万取deductible 再此同时我却要交３５万贷款利息？是不是太惨了亚。

你是可以随便花，但是ATO认定的是可以产生收入的贷款利息是可以抵税的。你赌博可以产生收入么？所以你REDRAW去赌博的30万是PERSONAL ISSUE，不是投资用的。

如果还有疑问，可以找ATO理论。如果他们为此修改了条款，也造福广大群众了。

ansonsy

事实上我从不赌博，可是投资也是一种赌博行为嘛。
我的确是反正的迷惑，因为我公司的accountant, 告诉我，　取出自己的钱是可以tax deductible ，但refinance 出的那部分是不可以的除非用于投资。现在看来她可能说得不对，坛子里大家都说是不可以的。（汗，我们公司还是专做property investment)

大家有好的accountant 推荐给我么，我在悉尼。

kuxxc

Ansonsy,

"Offset" and "redraw" are two different things. Offset = 2 accounts. Redraw = 1 account. (I don't now why the bank said "redraw" on your offset account.. not very professional there.)

If you're sure you have an offset account (a separate account with separate account number), then your broker is correct. You can take the money to China and your interest on the whole loan ($350,000) is deductible.

I let the experts do the talking:
http://www.yourmortgage.com.au/qna/2261/default.aspx

By the way, you can make up to $6,000 a year and still pay no tax. No need to take back all money if you don't need it.

[ 本帖最后由 kuxxc 于 2010-12-11 00:48 编辑 ]

安妮

学习了
最近还欢天喜地的多还钱去loan account,居然没有想以后redraw出来利息抵税的问题
我还是把多余的钱keep在offset account里好了