Salary Packaging-- Associate Lease, 给simonwang 同学交作业

D.g

ellepopo

simonwang 发表于 2013-7-18 21:48
看来你过去被我批评过一次学艺不精，记恨到现在。我不知你的firm如何，但是我所在的firm在澳洲FBT领域属 ...

我不是专门做FBT的，但是就我对FBT的认识来说，我不觉得有什么错误。还有一点就是做AL不是以逃税为目的，associate 必须make profit或至少持平。如果是指导客户钻空子，那也不见得你的业务水平有多高，你的职业操守也值得让人怀疑。

simonwang

ellepopo 发表于 2013-7-18 14:56
这位SIMON同学本来我看到你不阴不阳的回帖是不想理会的，看完了前因后果以后我才明白你原来是做这个生意 ...

这位同学，我不是做这个生意的，哪怕所有leasing company今天都关门，都与我的收入无关。我也不做个人所得税，所以即便你做了associate lease，也和我个人利益无关。

什么叫不阴不阳的回答，难道要我直接骂人？你不在乎或根本不懂如何计算那些saving，你原先的comments“这样做可能也省不了多少钱吧，估计你报税的费用都涨上去了”原本就是不客观和片面的。多少人为了可以为家庭节省几百一千块，想尽很多办法，我有一个好方法告诉大家，何乐不为。


1. 向前面的同学说的因 lease 而产生的手续费有可能比利息还要高，就好像是1% interest rate + 5% administration cost; 这个大家去做finiance的公司问问就知道了；

片面至极的misleading，手续费有五倍利息那么高？如果你找到这样的公司，我登报向所有人致歉，我误导大家了！一般公司每月收费大概在30-50元。有部分比较贪婪，我也在帖子中反复强调要货比三家，比如NLC，我就不推荐。

2. super guarentee 也会因相应的工资减少而减少；

事实上在salary packaging agreement之中，绝大多数都会签有如此条款： Compulsory employer superannuation contributions will be maintained at the pre-packaged level. Any salary packaging may then occur within the balance of the total package.

在我从事tax consulting 十数年中，只看到一个雇主减低super的，而且结果是员工都退出了不做salary packaging了。我想请问你个人做过salary packaging吗？你这个comments是不是misleading？

3. how to justify business usage of the car if you work in the office?  这么做的风险是多少？

再次体现你对FBT的不理解，现有法规中不需要你对business use 有任何证明，法律允许你用statutory formula，何来风险？

4. trust is a very complicated issue, you will have to pay at least $500 to file for your trust return including all the resolution/ minutes, ATO is really strict on trust right now;

Again,我不做个人，trust或甚至中小型企业的退税，不可能从中获取任何利益。Everything comes with a cost! 如果你的收益是几千，我个人例子甚至达到上万，请问付给你的会计师几百块又如何？

5. 如果LESSOR registered for GST, 他卖车的时候， business part of 那部分是要pay back 的；

Lessor卖车可能有balancing charge，但lessor一定在lease结束就卖车吗？而且你指什么要pay back? GST?

6. FBT car statutory method 取消后说明LOGBOOK记录会很重要，普通行政人员的car business usage 肯定不会超过10%；

你用一个现在propsed的法规来反驳我过去对associate lease的推广？？彼时彼刻是合法的，何错之有？搞笑！索性宣布过去27年FBT return 大家全部重做好了！看来陆克文背后计算出18亿saving的高手就是您！

多说几句：工党新政如同statutory rate变20%一样，无关环境保护，只是为他们获取更多税收填补窟窿而已。那些没有公共交通，每天要开上百公里的老百姓怎么办，每年几千的税务优惠对他们养家糊口很重要。现在的新政，直接宣布salary packaging和leasing companies的死刑，再后就是banking，car industries and others。

simonwang

ellepopo 发表于 2013-7-18 22:13
我不是专门做FBT的，但是就我对FBT的认识来说，我不觉得有什么错误。还有一点就是做AL不是以逃税为目的， ...

搞笑，make profit? Tax planning is not about make profit! It is to help hard working people save the tax otherwise would be wasted by the government. 更重要的，一切都是合法的，每年四次的ATO FBT NTLG 会议多次讨论associate lease and novated lease。人家ATO都不认为有什么不合法，何来逃税一说？何来职业操守？你可以去看看。

倒是附和你的那位，网上有人询问FBT的时候，故弄玄虚，结果也只是有个同事设计的spreadsheet招摇过市，你倒是该问问他的职业操守。

lee2267

simonwang 发表于 2013-7-18 21:48
看来你过去被我批评过一次学艺不精，记恨到现在。我不知你的firm如何，但是我所在的firm在澳洲FBT领域属 ...

我错了。 。你是对的。。。

太认真就是你的错了。。。能做planning 也不会来这边问了。。人家肯定有专家在的。。你就别操心了。。。

simonwang

套用一句老话吧，知之为知之！正因为很多人没有办法接触到专业的资讯，或者很多人假扮专家，才会上来宣传。

wowmygame

simonwang 发表于 2013-7-18 22:36
套用一句老话吧，知之为知之！正因为很多人没有办法接触到专业的资讯，或者很多人假扮专家，才会上来宣传。 ...

不用生气，群众的眼睛是雪亮的。
还Admin忙着寄logbook尼，哪跟哪啊，呵呵

ellepopo

这是你自己写的
'要自己制定还是考虑外包给firm？后者的话，可以联系我，谢谢。'

这样还说自己不是为了做广告？
既然你不做income tax, 那你就更没什么发言权了。你知道税局对trust的要求提高了吗？有多少额外的paperwork要准备吗？trustee 的 responsibility 有多少人清楚？很多trust 的建立就是会计为了多收费而来的。
现在取消statutory Method 就是件好事。太多dodge accountant 了。你要真是专家也不用上足迹揽生意了，应该是case多的接不完才对。

wowmygame

ellepopo 发表于 2013-7-18 22:52
这是你自己写的
'要自己制定还是考虑外包给firm？后者的话，可以联系我，谢谢。'

我不认同，我感觉华人报税的会计很多FBT怎么回事都弄不清爽。
至少我的会计就是。

ellepopo

simonwang 发表于 2013-7-18 22:21
搞笑，make profit? Tax planning is not about make profit! It is to help hard working people save t ...

The primary motivation for entering into an Associate car leasing arrangement ought to be “profit” and not merely to gain a taxation advantage from the FBT concessions available to salary packaged cars. An article published by the NTAA outlining their views

Simon TX NTAA的文章你看了没有？

ellepopo

simonwang 发表于 2013-7-18 22:14
这位同学，我不是做这个生意的，哪怕所有leasing company今天都关门，都与我的收入无关。我也不做个人所 ...

Lease rentals paid to your Associate are assessable income and they would normally be entitled to claim a deduction for depreciation, etc. On disposal of the car, they may be required to bring to account for income tax purposes any excess between the sale proceeds and written down book value of the car and there maybe a requirement to account for the sale in their BAS if they are registered for GST.

你不做income tax, 所以你对exiting the GST system 也不了解。建议你多学点再上来攻击别人。

ivy-liao

关于卖车时候的gst，
如果lease结束，associate没有了business activity，应该可以deregister gst，那么卖车是不是可以不收gst呀

simonwang

再回一句这位同行，你有见我说过associate lease一定好吗？我一再强调如果省税超过额外报税费用'何乐不为。你用NTAA来反驳我，那我可以告诉你NTAA关于FBT的知识也很浅显，他们的讲座有很多谬误，他们研制的FBT软件不值一提。还有你重复一遍我说的balancing charge 为何？证明我对吗？

你断章取义拿我的一句话来攻击我，但你是否看到Ivy拿到的样本是我给的？很不好意思，我所在的事务所的确不需要我拉生意，我们FBT业务的确做不完，谢谢关心。至少比某些学艺不精还说不值得推荐的同行要好得多。

simonwang

我不做income tax和你不做FBT一样，如果你说我没有发言权，那很好，谢谢你，己所不欲，勿施于人!

我推广associate lease间接还给一些小会计事务所更多生意，可惜很多不懂装懂的砖家。你不懂，别人就猫腻了？

ellepopo

你说你干了10多年，那我认为你给的意见是很片面的：
1 为了AL而成立trust, 就是画蛇添足。大多数情况就是没必要；
2 GST一般annual gross income 少于75k 都不建议register for GST, 为什么？ create more fees for accountants, 还有lease 结束ATO 一定会追GST的。100%
3 AL 的关键是associate 的tax position。non resident for tax purpose-has to pay non resident tax rate for income. Tax resident - has to disclose overseas income; 一般的建议都是要先找专业人士咨询，才能进行下一步。
4 从税局2年前更改statutory method 的rate 就可以知道这一块本身就是有漏洞的，现在堵上了
5 你的lease agreement 是你的版权吗，不是最好删了
6 你的专长是FBT，如果自己不是100% 有把握的，最好不要advise
7 感谢你让我借此机会好好研究了AL，no point to argue any more!

ellepopo

ivy-liao 发表于 2013-7-18 23:31
关于卖车时候的gst，
如果lease结束，associate没有了business activity，应该可以deregister gst，那么卖 ...

在你DE REGISTER FOR GST 的时候，就要把GST 交回去，上网搜一下 'leaving the GST system' , ATO 很重视这个问题的

不是卖车的时候，而是你的LEASE 结束的时候就应该按ATO的指导价把 1/11 GST 交回去，同时如果你的车折旧后的VALUE 和ATO 的指导价有出入，高的部分就是收入，少的部分就是loss.

即便是买车的时候没有 REGISTER FOR GST 或者是私人手上买的车不含GST, 出售或者是LEASE 结束的时候，你都是要把GST 交回去的 as you are registered for GST.

record keeping is another important issue, you have to keep odometer reading at the beginning and ending of FBT year, your associates has to claim depreciation in her/his annual tax return which will be sent to ATO and by the end of the lease, all the adjustments has to be made to satisfy ATO's requirement.

gongse

好贴留着以后仔细读读

红烧鸡翅

是什么公司都可以做这个吗，还是说一定要 non profit

simonwang

ellepopo 发表于 2013-7-19 01:47
你说你干了10多年，那我认为你给的意见是很片面的：
1 为了AL而成立trust, 就是画蛇添足。大多数情况就是没 ...

1 为了AL而成立trust, 就是画蛇添足。大多数情况就是没必要；

From where did you see I ask people to set up a trust just for Associate lease? I'm telling people a family trust can be treated as associate of the employee.

2 GST一般annual gross income 少于75k 都不建议register for GST, 为什么？ create more fees for accountants, 还有lease 结束ATO 一定会追GST的。100%

Same as above, from where did you see I ask people to register GST just for associate lease. I'm saying if you register then you can claim GST back. BTW, you keep talking fee to the accountants, please, read what I said: if the saving outweight the extra fee, worthy of doing. If you don't care $1000 or more saving each year, just walk away. If you don't understand how FBT works, just keep quite.

3 AL 的关键是associate 的tax position。non resident for tax purpose-has to pay non resident tax rate for income. Tax resident - has to disclose overseas income; 一般的建议都是要先找专业人士咨询，才能进行下一步。

You get even more bullshit now. When did I say you can associate lease with a non tax resident?

4 从税局2年前更改statutory method 的rate 就可以知道这一块本身就是有漏洞的，现在堵上了

That's why I say must be someone like you behind the change, clearly you don't understand the tax law or even any law, have you seen any law without amendment or uncertainty? Talk to those who have to travel 40,000 km a year to get to work, talk to those who count on some tax saving for some food on their table. Tell them you think the change of law is correct.


5 你的lease agreement 是你的版权吗，不是最好删了

Don't you worry about that, I have different version for work and the one I gave people is my own IP. I'm way more professinal than you thought.

6 你的专长是FBT，如果自己不是100% 有把握的，最好不要advise

Same comments to you, you'd better keep quite about FBT.

7 感谢你让我借此机会好好研究了AL，no point to argue any more!

You are welcome for technical debate.

ellepopo

simonwang 发表于 2013-7-19 10:51
1 为了AL而成立trust, 就是画蛇添足。大多数情况就是没必要；

From where did you see I ask people to  ...

1 为了AL而成立trust, 就是画蛇添足。大多数情况就是没必要；

From where did you see I ask people to set up a trust just for Associate lease? I'm telling people a family trust can be treated as associate of the employee.

The beauty of associate lease is when the associate is a family trust. The salary trasnfer effect can be maximised, especially for the family with parent migrants.
这不是你的原话么？ 你虽然没有明说，但是是有INDICATION 的；

2 GST一般annual gross income 少于75k 都不建议register for GST, 为什么？ create more fees for accountants, 还有lease 结束ATO 一定会追GST的。100%

Same as above, from where did you see I ask people to register GST just for associate lease. I'm saying if you register then you can claim GST back. BTW, you keep talking fee to the accountants, please, read what I said: if the saving outweight the extra fee, worthy of doing. If you don't care $1000 or more saving each year, just walk away. If you don't understand how FBT works, just keep quite.


原帖由 easter 于 2012-5-23 14:28 发表
一般来讲用 associate lease 你就没有input tax credit
这个是corporate contribution的10%， 也不是很小的数字


注册GST便是，总不能要省税又怕麻烦的。
这也是你的原话，就是因为大家都想省钱，我的建议是如果你把省的钱和你要额外花费的钱来比较如果相差不过，意义不大，而且本身GST就是一个很要提前考虑的问题，你轻描淡写的说一句那就注册GST吧，有可能LZ要为此多支付好几千块，和省下的钱相比，你觉得有意义吗？而且你自己对GST 的认识也是很浅薄的，只会做FBT是不能做一个好的TAX ADVISER的。

3 AL 的关键是associate 的tax position。non resident for tax purpose-has to pay non resident tax rate for income. Tax resident - has to disclose overseas income; 一般的建议都是要先找专业人士咨询，才能进行下一步。

You get even more bullshit now. When did I say you can associate lease with a non tax resident?

我认为LZ 的情况就是应该要考虑是不是要成为tax resident, 也可以是part year tax resident, 专业人士都会建议在做LEASE 之前做一个TAX PLAN, 这是很必须，因为每个人的财务状况不一样，你直接跳过这一步，就说明你没有这方面的经验，或者你只是想卖弄你FBT的学识而已；

4 从税局2年前更改statutory method 的rate 就可以知道这一块本身就是有漏洞的，现在堵上了

That's why I say must be someone like you behind the change, clearly you don't understand the tax law or even any law, have you seen any law without amendment or uncertainty? Talk to those who have to travel 40,000 km a year to get to work, talk to those who count on some tax saving for some food on their table. Tell them you think the change of law is correct.

你怎么不说是为了省钱去买几个名牌包包呢？做AL的都是税率高的人才有动力做， 不然成本和回报不成正比，就算是每年上班来回超过40k公里的，那也是上班啊，每个人上班坐车要付费，开车要付油费，有什么不妥吗？如果都是work related travel, 根本就是不需要通过salary sacrifice 来做这些无谓的事情，也根本就没有FBT tax liability.


5 你的lease agreement 是你的版权吗，不是最好删了

Don't you worry about that, I have different version for work and the one I gave people is my own IP. I'm way more professinal than you thought.

I think you are more show off than be professional, do you have PI insurance to cove all your 'tax advice' and all the template you provided to the public?

6 你的专长是FBT，如果自己不是100% 有把握的，最好不要advise

Same comments to you, you'd better keep quite about FBT.

你不觉得你作为40多的大男人说这话很粗鲁吗? I don't want to and I would never provide any tax advice to any body in this scenario, because I don't want to take any risk. Since your knowledge in Income tax, GST is very limited, you can not only advise people in FBT without reminding people to seek professional tax advice in other area.

7 感谢你让我借此机会好好研究了AL，no point to argue any more!

You are welcome for technical debate.

你对持有不同意见的人的态度就是冷嘲加熱讽， 我想不会有人再愿意和你交流了。

8 BTW, you seems to come to the wrong place, you have too many shit!!!

simonwang

Ok, I'm happy to reply to your comments then our posts keep geting longer and longer. Indeed, it started from your comment "这样做可能也省不了多少钱吧，估计你报税的费用都涨上去了". Do't try to shift from that, doesn't matter what you try to copy and paste.

If the tax saving is greater than the additional cost, it's worthy of considering. Please tell me what's wrong with that comment?

As said, you might not care about hundreds or thousands of saving. But there are lots of people earning less than you do, have big family to feed. Giving them some information that they didn't know, what's wrong with that.

1. My indication? It is stating the fact. Obviously you decide to believe I tried to mislead.

2. Will you write a text book here to explain the GST or any tax, of course no one will and no one can. What we, as tax professional, can do maybe is to increase the awareness. I never ever say Associate lease is always better. You again here simply extract my words from other contents.

3. You read a lot of my posts, where did you see LZ was or should considering the non tax resident issue? LZ only mentioned family migrated to Aus so she needs a big car.

4. 做AL的都是税率高的人才有动力做, what you said proved again you are same as the genius giving advice to Rudd. Check with Ivy, check with your clients if any has associate lease, what's their income level?

5. It shows you don't appreciate that other are doing something you don't fully understand. I give my suggestion to others, without charge, do I need insurance?
  
6. I'm everything but rude except to fake professionals. You told me not to advise but you keep talking about FBT law and changes. See the irony here? You have showed again and again that you have one standard to others but spare yourself.
BTW, don't worry about my income tax or GST knowledge.

7. I've helped hundreds people and I'll continue to help to increase the awareness of what people can do to save tax. No regret about that.

8. Sorry, it's not your call.

simonwang

Ivy，真不好意思，你的帖子成了战场，毁了你一番好意和心血。我很抱歉。退税时节，关于associate lease如果有什么疑问的，我一定帮忙。

此外，静下心来，对 ellepopo 再说几句：

在论坛上帮助大家了解所不了解的，本来就是一件乐事，特别我们做税务做会计的。如果自身不了解，就贸然结论一样事物不合理不划算，很偏颇。那位 lee2267 一句“firm 是从来不推荐 associate lease 的”让我非常失望与气愤。特别是他本人连car benefit base value如何计算都不知道的情况下。而且此君还曾说过客户砍价，他的服务也减半。这样的态度不是做税务人应有的。不惭，在下所在的firm就是大力推广associate lease的，虽不是4大，但在FBT领域是全澳最优秀的firm。

我们在论坛发言，绝对不是tax advice，我也从未说过Ivy和其他朋友就无需考虑其他事宜了，相反我一再提到增加的会计开支，这开支是什么呢，当然就是因为associate lease额外的会计开支。如果收益大于开支，何乐不为？你一再指责我给tax advice, 有没有保险。如果这样的话，岂不是人人自危不要上论坛了谈金融税务了。

你还指责我没有详尽其他的concern，诸如GST，那我想请你想一下，你做的哪一个tax advice没有scope？我们可能一谈到一个税务话题A， 就把可能相关的B-Z都说出来吗? 也不是抬杠，关于associate lease和GST有关的还有很多，不止你说的(可能发生的)balancing charge的问题，还有luxury car and GST，GST on employee contribution等等，如果照你所说，要一一道来，估计这论坛也没法看了，也没法写相关帖子了。这也是我说有额外会计支出的问题。

你还质疑我试图拉生意，那我相信论坛上百个公开私下询问我关于FBT的朋友都可以证明，我从未收费，也未试图给我的firm拉过生意。你摘录的那句，是我说如果人家已然想外包，可以找我。你忽视我前半句是说人家可以自己做。如果我真要拉生意，早就说，“这个很难，最好要外包，最好找我，我是澳洲最好的。”事实上，今天之前，我从未在论坛上说我所在的firm是澳洲做FBT最好的。

就和Ivy刚发此贴，很多人群而攻之。可是多少人真的做过FBT，做过成千上万次的计算？不过，可能是我太较真了，白白浪费Ivy一番好意，也浪费彼此时间。

蚂蚁

谢谢分享

Ozquest

zliybyc1

simonwang 发表于 2013-7-20 23:13
Ivy，真不好意思，你的帖子成了战场，毁了你一番好意和心血。我很抱歉。退税时节，关于associate lease如果 ...

那位服务减半君ethics基本为0
不用和他计较
你对大家的帮助我们都看在眼里 非常感谢

xiuluowt3

顶

fionazz

Thanks Simon Wang for advice!

yi2005

马克，学习

wangxiaoer

xijq227

ivy-liao 发表于 2012-5-18 15:43
Associate lease就是你的employer从你的associate那里租车给你用，你的associate可以是你的父母，你的spous ...

楼主, 假设associate 是你父母. 你是先全款现金买车? 注册在父母名下, 然后lease给你? 这样子的?