关于申报探亲父母TAX OFFSET是否合法的讨论

小豹子

请问这个 Personal Ruling 是什么东西? 怎么弄?

xingbu

原帖由 chocachu 于 2009-7-24 10:30 发表

What is the 183 day rule?
This is the second statutory test.
Under this test, if you are actually present in Australia for more than half the income year, whether continuously or intermittently,  ...

What is the 183 day rule?
This is the second statutory test.
Under this test, if you are actually present in Australia for more than half the income year, whether continuously or intermittently, you may be said to have a constructive residence in Australia unless it can be established that:
       your usual place of abode is outside Australia, and
       you have no intention to take up residence here.
As you can see, staying over 183 doesn’t automatically make you a tax resident! This test is not a primary test, it does not mean much if your domicile is oversea.


Also, if you deemed to be Australia Resident for tax purpose, you will be to be assessed on world wide income.

赞成，这才是对resident for tax purpose的正确理解。

shuangchao

原帖由 lycans 于 2009-7-24 11:18 发表


"i am not saying its a loophole, but trust me if everyone who reads this post goes ahead and use the offset regardless of their own circumstances, a tax ruling will be released soon and put some r ...

I understand what you are saying, to be honest with you, this is not a complicated nor confusing issue, and i have no doubt about what the correct outcome should be myself. Once again, i can't stop you or anyone from claiming the offset, and that's not why i made my comments before.
If you ring the tax office, you may get the answer you want from them if you are lucky, and that's only because some of the people answering phones there only have the basic tax knowledge. However, these won't be the same people reviewing your case later on.
183 days test is a secondary test, its a fall back position, but at the end of the day its the first test that counts, i can't imagine the ATO accept the 183 test outcome if its not in their favor.
"dare they fine you later on" why wont' they dare? at the very least, interest would be charged at 11%. You can prepare your own return with the 'who cares' attitude, but i won't promote this to other people if i am you.

丹儿

个人的确可以自己来退税，不一定需要tax accountant来做。但这个并不会影响日后被审计出来补税，补利息，甚至罚款。你个人对税法理解错误了，而且也没有给tax accountant来做，那么肯定也是你个人日后承担可能发生的利息和罚款，很公平啊。

另一方面，本来个人退税就是个人的事情，当然也是个人的责任和义务。自己做退税，多报，少报，漏报，都可以。自己对自己所作的负责。但是如果放到公开的地方来讨论，答案就只能是1，找tax accountant。如果不同意accountant的理解，那就2，申请private ruling，如果还不满意ato的意见，还可以3, 挑战ato，法庭见。这个是正规的流程，合法的流程。

qqyang

提醒一点，即便让tax agent给你报税，还是你自己对最后的报税结果负责。

丹儿

原帖由 qqyang 于 2009-7-24 13:38 发表
提醒一点，即便让tax agent给你报税，还是你自己对最后的报税结果负责。

当然了，难道tax accountant还要帮客户承担责任？
就这个offset问题，找过tax accountant的人，我相信绝大部分得到的是no的答复。

coocle

原帖由 yammy66 于 2009-7-23 10:56 发表
谢谢105楼! 我似乎还没资格加分, 如果版主看到了, 麻烦帮着加一下...

那父母收入是否就按国内的退休工资折算成澳元? 需要提供工资单吗? 谢谢!

我父母的退休金都不超过6000刀的免税额度，我认为不需要考虑，就没在信里提。

lycans

原帖由 丹儿 于 2009-7-24 13:47 发表

当然了，难道tax accountant还要帮客户承担责任？
就这个offset问题，找过tax accountant的人，我相信绝大部分得到的是no的答复。

Of course most of them would say no as they are not 100% sure, their reputations are on the line if their clients get caught later. If I were an accountant, I would say no too. As I mentioned above, the guideline of ato isn't clear enough for the general public, and it is ato's fault if we misunderstood. So far, I haven't heard any of us have been charged 11% interest for wrongly claiming this offset (as long as our parents have stayed in Australia for more than 6 months).
Most of us support our parents during their visits and they depend on us for accommodation and living cost. That is why we are entitled to claim this offset. Some may argue that our parents overseas' incomes should be assessed too. No doubt about that. But that is our parents' problems, not ours. We are NOT supposed to know or reveal our parents' financial status. Personally, I don't think this matter is serious or worthy enough for ATO to chase up. Even if they do, the worse outcome for us is giving the money back.

[ 本帖最后由 lycans 于 2009-7-24 15:55 编辑 ]

XIAOGUAIGUAI

原帖由 丹儿 于 2009-7-24 13:47 发表

当然了，难道tax accountant还要帮客户承担责任？
就这个offset问题，找过tax accountant的人，我相信绝大部分得到的是no的答复。

TAX ACCOUNTANT如果因为水平或者其他原因出错，难道也要客户来承担责任？

qqyang

是的。税法规定，tax payer对自己的tax return负责，所以，无论找多少个tax accountant，都是tax payer自己负责。而tax accountant如果乱填报也会面临税法和行业协会的处罚，当然tax payer也可以要求tax accountant对自己的失职赔偿。

floodp

这个父母探亲的退税100%不可以的，如果今年你用e-tax报税，你就会发现在这个item上的说明比以前清楚的多。如果父母过来的目的是visit而不是移民，就不可以退税。

yammy66

谢谢127楼的回答! 那么父母的SNI是不是他们在国内的工资呢?还是因为他们在澳大利亚没收入就不用提了？

shuangchao

原帖由 lycans 于 2009-7-24 15:52 发表

Of course most of them would say no as they are not 100% sure, their reputations are on the line if their clients get caught later. If I were an accountant, I would say no too. As I mentioned above, ...

Once again, what you put on your tax return is your own business, don't mislead others into doing the same thing as you. ATO does have clear guidelines, you probably just didn't understand it completely. for example, If you search dependent parent tax offset on the ato website, it clearly says visiting parents do not qualify. You will get the same answer if you ring them up too.

July

如果去年退了这项税，今后会有影响吗，会有罚款吗？

azurechris

今天才看见这个贴，很难理解那条 父母过来是不是为了移民，移民也不是一天两天就批下来，也offset不了多少钱，似乎很费周折的感觉。。。

velasco

看完讨论我也有“不claim等于白白浪费”的想法。但是在自己搞不清楚或明知是漏洞的情况，是选择专业意见还是“不妨一试”，这是一种思维方式，已经超出纯税法角度的分析了。

MaxJay

真心感谢这么多同学对这个帖子的贡献。这个话题好像真的没有什么定论啊。只能是给大家提供一些不同意见。各位在退税的时候可以借鉴一下。说到底每个人还是要对自己的行为负责的。想清楚再去做。做了就不要后悔就行了。

courier

我非常赞同131楼的。

看大家讨论了这么多，tax的专家也都出来了。关于是不是tax resident的case特别多，其实非常难判断，一般来说是case by case的，不能单单用183天的rule来一刀切。

我的看法是，如果申请visa的时候，目的陈述是来旅游，就算有定居澳洲的意愿，但是白纸黑字写着的，很难否定，很难判定为tax resident （根据visa判断也不绝对，要看具体的facts，能否判定有定居或者在澳洲生活的意愿）。但是，如果你给父母申请过移民，排队也好，付费也好，就contribute他们有来澳洲定居的意愿，再加上，比如卖了国内房产，或者部分资产已经转移到澳洲，在澳洲有系统的医疗保障，生活方式，申报税务等等，就有可能判定为澳洲的tax resident。

看这个帖子的人很多，希望不给大家误导。你在考虑自己能不能claim的时候，要多方面考虑一下自己的情况。简单说，就是可以claim，但是条件非常严格，并且要保留好证据，如果没有把握，最好咨询专业的建议。“不claim等于白白浪费”的想法千万不要有。

lostme

今年不妨一试, 去年没退也就算了. 另外, 夫妻二人都报税, 这个dependant是只能一个人提 还是二个人报税时都可以提?

courier

上面的同学不仔细看帖子，这么多人苦口婆心的让大家慎重，你怎么还一上来就要报呢

柯柯

1年的，如果要cliam,请加入当地社区团活动，增加resident的说服力。

MaxJay

柯柯，这个当地社团是个什么东东？

jialiren

楼主的这个贴很专业，讨论的专业人士也多，很不错！ 顶一下！
感谢各位专业人士的分析和分享，学习了！

本来也想CLAIM 一下这个OFFSET （探亲6月以上，但实际没呆够1年），看了这么多讨论，想想还是别麻烦了 ！
万一，tax office 盯上了，以后claim 点别的啥东东的，是合理避税啊:) ，也许没那么太方便吧，还得保留所有的啥证据的要5年，就省点心了不claim 这个offset:)

lycans

原帖由 shuangchao 于 2009-7-24 17:00 发表


Once again, what you put on your tax return is your own business, don't mislead others into doing the same thing as you. ATO does have clear guidelines, you probably just didn't understand it comp ...

If what you said is true, how come so many people get different answers from ATO. Mislead other people? You must be kidding yourself. What I said is my personal opinion, and others do so at their own risks. I believe people here are grow-up enough to make their own calls.  It’s an insult for underestimate other’s intelligence.
The guideline may be clear to you, an accountant, but not to me and many others. Tax office keeps telling us that individual taxation is easy for MOST people to do it themselves WITHOUT using an accountant.  As for this offset, it cause great confusions among the public, even its own staff couldn’t give a definite answer. Obviously, it is ATO's problem as it didn't do its job properly to make the guideline more understandable to the public but only exclusive to a handful qualified accountants.

No law is perfect. Most laws have flaws or loopholes somehow, just like the bugs in Windows. Use it or not, up to you.

Other than your imagination, do you have any REAL experiences and cases to support your claim that people get fines for claiming this offset?  Please don’t just read out from the textbook.

The fact is when I used the online assessment tool, I answered every single question with my best knowledge (NO CHEATINGS), and it deems my parents as tax residents.

floodp

原帖由 lycans 于 2009-7-25 15:28 发表


If what you said is true, how come so many people get different answers from ATO. Mislead other people? You must be kidding yourself. What I said is my personal opinion, and others do so at their own risks. I believe people here are grow-up enough to make their own calls.  It’s an insult for underestimate other’s intelligence.
The guideline may be clear to you, an accountant, but not to me and many others. Tax office keeps telling us that individual taxation is easy for MOST people to do it themselves WITHOUT using an accountant.  As for this offset, it cause great confusions among the public, even its own staff couldn’t give a definite answer. Obviously, it is ATO's problem as it didn't do its job properly to make the guideline more understandable to the public but only exclusive to a handful qualified accountants.

No law is perfect. Most laws have flaws or loopholes somehow, just like the bugs in Windows. Use it or not, up to you.

Other than your imagination, do you have any REAL experiences and cases to support your claim that people get fines for claiming this offset?  Please don’t just read out from the textbook.

The fact is when I used the online assessment tool, I answered every single question with my best knowledge (NO CHEATINGS), and it deems my parents as tax residents.

Generally, you are an Australian resident for tax purposes if you have:

-always lived in Australia
-moved to Australia and live here permanently
-been in Australia continuously for six months or more and for most of the time you have been
    in the one job, and
    living in the same place
-been in Australia for more than half of the financial year, unless
    your usual home is overseas, and
    you do not intend to live in Australia.

上面是ATO列出的条件，如果父母只是来探亲，我看不到任何可能来证明父母是resident for tax purpose.

lycans

I am talking about the online test. You don't need to believe me, try it yourself.

chocachu

rang the ato on friday, the personal tax specialist there confirmed visiting parents do not qualify for the offset. so i think david and other accountants are correct. they also said the calculator can't be used as evidence for claim. anyone still unsure can contact the ato directly.

lycans

原帖由 chocachu 于 2009-7-25 22:36 发表
rang the ato on friday, the personal tax specialist there confirmed visiting parents do not qualify for the offset. so i think david and other accountants are correct. they also said the calculator ca ...

did you tell them your parents have stayed in OZ for more than 6 months?

phoebe520

http://www.ato.gov.au/individual ... =/content/64131.htm

我觉得这个网页说得很清楚啊
If you...are visiting Australia for more than six months and for most of that time live at the same place and have or establish ties in the local community
you are generally...an Australian resident for tax purposes.

所以，没有什么好疑问的呢？过来拿探亲1年签证的父母都可以申报啦！
另外关于SNI，我的理解是澳洲境内的收入。如果是海外收入，由于并没有转移到澳洲境内，也不能减轻你作为赡养人的负担，而且也不是澳洲社会创造的财富，所以澳洲政府是没有资格课税的。

包工头1

太好了，谢谢