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[其他] 投票,个人收入多少才算中产阶级? [复制链接]

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发表于 2013-8-23 10:28 |显示全部楼层
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大选在即,新闻版很火爆,各位同学踊跃辩论两党各种政策等等

今天突然在一个帖子里面看到这样的观点,修水管的年入30w也永远不是中产,中产一定要是律师,医生等“高尚”职业,这是澳洲西人普遍的看法。

见到这种神奇的论点,不知道是我一直以来对中产的定义理解错了,还是西人真都和这位同学一样看法,蓝领赚多少钱都是无产阶级?

同学们怎么看捏?
多选投票: ( 最多可选 3 项 ), 共有 605 人参与投票 查看投票参与人

投票已经结束

12.42% (77)
19.35% (120)
18.55% (115)
7.26% (45)
42.42% (263)
您所在的用户组没有投票权限

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参与人数 1积分 +2 收起 理由
aowu + 2 revenge

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发表于 2013-8-23 10:34 |显示全部楼层
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用白猫黑猫论来解释吧。

发表于 2013-8-23 10:34 |显示全部楼层
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发表于 2013-8-23 10:35 |显示全部楼层
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百度一下:中产阶级的划分标准通常有两个,一是职业,二是人均或家庭收入。从经济地位、政治地位和社会文化地位上看,他们均居于现阶段社会的中间水平——这是一个貌似明晰,实则含混的定义。

发表于 2013-8-23 10:40 |显示全部楼层
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lz可以看看这篇文章,Struggling, middle class or super wealthy http://www.news.com.au/money/fed ... 4fgcm-1226640994274

调查要用税后收入,只有税后的才是你可以支配的。

澳村的阶级概念立足于收入,跟文化追求或教育背景没关系,跟英国的阶级系统不是一个概念。金钱不跟随职业,而是短缺的技能。Middle Class非中产,就是个中间阶级,背着房贷实现着澳洲梦,还是政府税收最受害的一群。


THE Budget will be announced tonight and so we are bracing ourselves for a whole lot of talk about "struggling families", "middle class welfare" and the "super wealthy" over the next few days.

But what do those labels actually mean? And where do you sit in relation to everyone else?

Australia has never had a class system in the same way the British historically have (although those class definitions have changed over time).

Social researcher Mark McCrindle says that in Australia the idea of "class" is based around earnings rather than cultural pursuits or educational backgrounds.

"Money doesn't follow profession, it follows skills shortages," said Mr McCrindle, director of McCrindle Research.

"The highest average salaries are found in industries like mining, construction and utilities."

Mr McCrindle added that as a nation we are not as wealthy as we might think, and what is actually the "middle ground" for earners in Australia does not line up with the traditional image of the middle class – full of two parent families with kids and a mortgage.

The most recent Australian Bureau of Statistics figures on the net income (amount people are paid after tax) of Australian households ranks houses in to five groups, or quintiles.

"It's better to measure this disposable income, it's sort of irrelevant to talk about gross earnings because people don't get that," Mr McCrindle said.

"Whether someone in a household is earning $130,000 or not is irrelevant because no one gets that $130,000 to take home."

So what do these five quintiles look like? And which one do you belong to?

Average disposable income $16,328 per year, average net worth $434,686

Mr McCrindle said much of this quintile is made up of retirees living on the pension - 42.9 per cent of the quintile is made up of lone-person households.

But the data, taken from the ABS's household income and income distribution 2009-10 statistics, shows 46.1 per cent live in a home that they own with a fully-paid mortgage.

"The pensioners are clearly asset-endowed but cash-flow tight," he said.

"The problem is they have little liquidity, little flexibility in their expenses, so they might have on paper a fair bit of money in assets but they really are tight on a day-to-day basis."

The rest of the people in this group are those who are on "Struggle Street", Mr McCrindle says.

"They have neither the earnings to have a decent quality of life and they have such a poor asset base that they have no secure for the future," he said.

"They're in a permanent state of housing stress, bill stress and even some of them are in food stress and rely on charities and social institutions."

Average disposable income $27,248 per year, average net worth $513,750

For most people in this quintile (51.7 per cent) their main income comes from wages and salary.

But for more than a third their main source of income is government pensions and allowances.

"These are the struggling working families, the working poor," Mr McCrindle said.

Just over 40 per cent of these households have dependent children living in them, and this quintile is under mortgage stress or renting stress.

"While for most families the water bill or power bill is just an expense, for this quintile it becomes a significant issue for them, those quarterly bills," Mr McCrindle said.

"Because more than half their income comes from earnings, because assets are poor, they're in quite a financially insecure position.

"If someone loses their job or they get cutbacks and can't get the overtime those in that quintile are going to struggle."

Average disposable income $37,492 per year, average net worth $555,448

Being middle income quintile, this group makes up the statistical "middle class".

Households in this group have the highest likelihood of being a home with depending children (42 per cent) and for four out of five households the main source of income is wages or salary. Just 4 per cent list their main source of income as government allowances.

"This is the group that's doing it for themselves and contributing a lot to [the tax base]," Mr McCrindle said.

"They're not getting a leg up from the government - they are the backbone of government revenue coffers."

And the average disposable income is just $37,000.

"Does that make them average? Turns out from an after-tax perspective it does," he said.

"It's way down on what people would think."

Mr McCrindle added that this group was strongly affected by government policy changes.

"Only little things, like a change to Family Tax or Parenting Payment eligibility, that's when they get hit," he said.
Average disposable income $50,700 per year, average net worth $705,314

The overwhelming majority of this quintile's main source of income comes from wages.

This group also has a low likelihood of being a single parent family (just 2.8 per cent), compared to 9.7 per cent, 10.7 per cent and 7.1 per cent for the first, second and third quintiles respectively.

And when you look at their living situation almost half of households are paying off a mortgage.

"That puts them right in the traditional middle class ‘achieving the Aussie dream' role," Mr McCrindle said.

"They're not at all dependent on government pensions, not at all a drain, and they're big contributors to the revenues and at the stage where they're wanting to accumulate wealth or pay down the mortgage.

"I guess what we're saying here is the benchmark for middle class has crept up a bit."

Average disposable income $88,608 per year, average net worth $1,396,342

All the households in this quintile have private income.

"Think about them as the professional class, but the entrepreneurial class as well," Mr McCrindle said.

"This quintile has the highest portion that own their own business."

The group also has the highest likelihood of being a couple-only household (35 per cent).

The so-called super wealthy do fall in this top quintile, so the average sits a bit higher than it otherwise would, Mr McCrindle said.

"But they are hardly the super wealthy – the highest fifth of households are not super wealthy," he said.

"Earning after tax $88,000 - that is not wealthy."

Mr McCrindle said this was highlighted by the proportion of this group that have a mortgage (52.4 per cent).

"This is the home that they occupy, so clearly, if someone's got a mortgage on the house they live in, it might be a nicer house than most but they're still paying it off."

And of the top quintile, the average household net worth of is $1.396 million.

"This means they've probably got a million dollars net worth in a house," he said.

"What does a million get you? In about 250 suburbs across Australia it's the average price of a home."

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/money/fed ... 94274#ixzz2ckSLoVO9

发表于 2013-8-23 11:08 |显示全部楼层
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我觉得,靠领工资算财富的,都不算有钱。。。
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发表于 2013-8-23 11:15 |显示全部楼层
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wiki上转来的,没有什么具体的收入标准。 另外,我觉得这个投票很有误导性啊,可以预见一群人对投票项里面的数字不屑一顾

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class

In February 2009, The Economist announced that over half the world's population now belongs to the middle class, as a result of rapid growth in emerging countries. It characterized the middle class as having a reasonable amount of discretionary income, so that they do not live from hand to mouth as the poor do, and defined it as beginning at the point where people have roughly a third of their income left for discretionary spending after paying for basic food and shelter. This allows people to buy consumer goods, improve their health care, and provide for their children's education. Most of the emerging middle class consists of people who are middle-class by the standards of the developing world but not the rich one, since their money incomes do not match developed country levels, but the percentage of it which is discretionary does. By this definition, the number of middle-class people in Asia exceeded that in the West sometime around 2007 or 2008.
鬼叫你穷呀,顶硬上呀
出来混,迟早是要还的

发表于 2013-8-23 11:20 |显示全部楼层
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税前20万吧

发表于 2013-8-23 11:20 |显示全部楼层
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我怎么觉得蓝领的社会地位比除了医生律师的大多数白领要高多了?

发表于 2013-8-23 11:39 |显示全部楼层
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个人感觉在澳洲,家庭净收入超过15万澳币(单人10万以上),无很大自住房贷和其他压力(投资房除外),就可以享受到中产的生活质量(每月花1万澳币以上)。
开6万澳币以上的车(BMW, MERC,LEXUS级别的)
有私人医生,定期做检查保健,平时出入中高档餐馆,自己做饭也以有机食品为主
丰富的生活,歌剧,芭蕾,经常的旅游度假(包括海外旅游),运动和锻炼。
子女接受私校教育

另外职业比较有社会认同感和自豪感,比如医生,律师,高管一类
================================================================
华人家庭其实家庭净收入达到15万的应该也不少,但通常有余钱也全用来投资房产了,
或者用来储蓄
花在生活享受上的通常不像西人这样。 而且华人通常从事的高收入职位也是技术性工作
为主或者是有自己的生意。

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ItsThere + 3 我很赞同
笨笨人 + 4 你太有才了

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发表于 2013-8-23 11:51 |显示全部楼层
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harry2007 发表于 2013-8-23 11:39
个人感觉在澳洲,家庭净收入超过15万澳币(单人10万以上),无很大自住房贷和其他压力(投资房除外),就可 ...

讲的得蛮中肯,基本上是一个家庭收入水平和消费水平的综合指数。
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发表于 2013-8-23 11:52 |显示全部楼层
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righttang 发表于 2013-8-23 11:08
我觉得,靠领工资算财富的,都不算有钱。。。

中产和富是两个概念啊

发表于 2013-8-23 11:55 |显示全部楼层
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电工这种技术工种,如果能挣到15w以上难道也不算中产吗? 那只有律师医生算中产,中产也太少了点吧
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发表于 2013-8-23 12:00 |显示全部楼层
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extralight 发表于 2013-8-23 11:55
电工这种技术工种,如果能挣到15w以上难道也不算中产吗? 那只有律师医生算中产,中产也太少了点吧 ...

敬爱的霍华德同志曾经在国际友人的面前自豪的说过澳洲是世界上中产阶级人口比率最高的国家,按一些人的看法其实和天朝一样,金字塔顶一群人,然后下面一堆P民

发表于 2013-8-23 12:02 |显示全部楼层
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澳洲这个消费,税前10w,连小资都勉强

发表于 2013-8-23 12:04 |显示全部楼层
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righttang 发表于 2013-8-23 11:08
我觉得,靠领工资算财富的,都不算有钱。。。

银行和矿业的职业管理人们光看薪水都是很有钱地啊
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发表于 2013-8-23 12:05 |显示全部楼层
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extralight 发表于 2013-8-23 11:55
电工这种技术工种,如果能挣到15w以上难道也不算中产吗? 那只有律师医生算中产,中产也太少了点吧 ...

电工,建筑工等工种的确是可以挣这么多,但人家不如医生律师那样旱涝保收。人家其实还是CONTRACTOR, 说实在的有的也是青春饭。另外中产跟价值观念,文化水平,思维方式的联系比经济收入更高。

我们中国人的思维最喜欢的就是单一性的用某些数字来量化一个人的层次,比如学生时代用成绩,工作之后用收入。
这样作其实是比较片面的。所以这个投票主题也是比较片面的。 应该换成中产阶级的个人收入通常有多少更加合适。

发表于 2013-8-23 12:06 |显示全部楼层
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不应该看收入,而是应该看资产。同样的家庭收入,一个人吃饱全家不饿,另外一个上有老下有小,全部吃光光,哪个是中产?

发表于 2013-8-23 12:09 |显示全部楼层
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apple教主乔布斯他养父是修车的engineering,他的自传上说父亲是中产阶级。无论职业,主要看资产和可支配的收入吧?税前20万,税后少了一大截。

发表于 2013-8-23 12:29 |显示全部楼层
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harry2007 发表于 2013-8-23 11:39
个人感觉在澳洲,家庭净收入超过15万澳币(单人10万以上),无很大自住房贷和其他压力(投资房除外),就可 ...

私校2个小孩就得4〜〜6万一年哟。税钱15万貌似有点悬

发表于 2013-8-23 12:49 |显示全部楼层
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中产就是一帮人,拿不到政府任何补贴和税务好处。
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发表于 2013-8-23 12:57 |显示全部楼层
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房子属于中间价位的就是中产阶级。
没有房子的就是无产阶级。

发表于 2013-8-23 12:57 |显示全部楼层
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今天这么多人打酱油!酱油打折?
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发表于 2013-8-23 13:02 |显示全部楼层
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harry2007 发表于 2013-8-23 12:05
电工,建筑工等工种的确是可以挣这么多,但人家不如医生律师那样旱涝保收。人家其实还是CONTRACTOR, 说实 ...

我就是想问问大家怎么定义中产阶级这个概念的,是和职业有关呢,还是只看收入。

据我所知澳洲和美国一样,完全看收入,突然有看到有大神来句蓝领赚多少钱都是无产阶级实在有点吃惊

发表于 2013-8-23 13:12 |显示全部楼层
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中产里也分层次,上层的向富人努力,中层的衣食无忧没什么生活压力,下层的打份工没福利,在澳洲可能还不如有些不工作的

发表于 2013-8-23 13:18 |显示全部楼层
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中产就应该从拿不到福利那时开始算起。
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发表于 2013-8-23 13:19 |显示全部楼层
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action 发表于 2013-8-23 13:12
中产里也分层次,上层的向富人努力,中层的衣食无忧没什么生活压力,下层的打份工没福利,在澳洲可能还不如 ...

是,我给的选项不够,中产的收入范围其实很广大,我的问题是是不是中产和职业有关吗。
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禁止发言

发表于 2013-8-23 13:20 |显示全部楼层
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purplenight 发表于 2013-8-23 12:06
不应该看收入,而是应该看资产。同样的家庭收入,一个人吃饱全家不饿,另外一个上有老下有小,全部吃光光, ...

说的对,但是看不看职业呢?蓝领家里几百上千万资产,有些人还是把人家当无产阶级呢

发表于 2013-8-23 13:20 |显示全部楼层
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宁静而致远 发表于 2013-8-23 13:18
中产就应该从拿不到福利那时开始算起。

that's hard to say, what if he/she uses negative gearing to reduce taxable income and still get welfare
爱自由

发表于 2013-8-23 13:24 |显示全部楼层
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2013whyregister 发表于 2013-8-23 13:20
that's hard to say, what if he/she uses negative gearing to reduce taxable income and still get we ...

喝喝,那你就不知道了, 政府很聪明的, negative gearing has to be added on eventually. no one can get away of it.

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