Trust owns all shares of a company, also the company is a beneficiary of the Tru

Poweregg

achollis 发表于 2012-11-6 20:40
还是一样的啊，trust控股的公司不会成为另一个trust的受益人。所以这样的操作是不可行的。只要是discreti ...

不太明白 “只要是discretionary trust，那么就没有个人真正控股。”
Trust不是entity，但是trustee是代替trust持有财产

family Trust可以买入股票，例如telstra，cba，为什么不能花100元买入一个private company（空壳公司）的股票？

至于beneficiary，好像是不需要你同意的
任何常见的trust deed，会把你，你的三姑六婆，你的公司，你有股份的公司都作为beneficiary，就好像你远房的10年没见面的表哥，也自动成了受益人（不是主要受益人），只是每年分钱，你不会分给他
如果你单身，你结婚后，lp也会自动成为beneficiary，以后生了儿子女儿，也自动会成了beneficiary

除了named beneficiary

Classes of eligible beneficiaries有
means each of the following, but does not include the settlor, or any child or spouse of the settlor:
The spouse of a named beneficiary;
The parents of a named beneficiary;
The children of the named beneficiaries;
The grandchildren of the named beneficiaries;
The brothers and sisters of the named beneficiaries;
The nieces and nephews of the named beneficiaries;
The uncles and aunts of the named beneficiaries and the children of those uncles and aunts;
The spouses of any children of the named beneficiaries;
The spouses of any grandchildren of the named beneficiaries;
The spouses of any brothers and sisters of the named beneficiaries;
The spouses of any nieces and nephews of the named beneficiaries;
Schools, universities, colleges and other educational bodies of any kind either within or outside Australia;
Companies:
•        Of which any of the beneficiaries otherwise mentioned in this schedule is a shareholder or director, or
•        In which at least one share is owned beneficially by any of the beneficiaries otherwise mentioned in this schedule
The trustees of any trusts in which any of the beneficiaries otherwise previously mentioned in this schedule has any interest, including an interest that is only expectant or prospective;
Partners in any partnership in which any of the beneficiaries otherwise mentioned in this schedule is a partner;
Charities the trustee nominates for this purpose;
Other legal entities the trustee nominates for this purpose.

cycwong21

Trustee Company
            |
            | Holds
            |
   Family Trust
            |
            | Income Distribute to beneficiaries
            |
A   B    C   D   E (Individuals)

1. Normally family trust does not distribute income to trustee company, because it would lose the protection of limited liability.
2. If you have set up another company as bucket company, then distributed income to that bucket company. In the past, it's workable. However, because of Div 7A, it has made the bucket company valueless. Since two years ago, accountants have already started not to distribute income from trust to companies.
3. For company, it'd be better not have director debit loan account (means that director would be better not to owe money to company), otherwise, ATO would treat the year ended amount balance as loan from company to directors, the accountant would have to account the annual repayment as deem dividend to directors.
4. Director can take out money from company by way of dividend, wages, allowance or up to maximum super deduction.

cycwong21

Private company does not have benefits of 50% discount capital gains.

Poweregg

cycwong21 发表于 2012-11-6 22:11
Private company does not have benefits of 50% discount capital gains.

Yes，that's the only disadvantage.........

现在运作小生意，可能该 用公司来运作生意更好，Trust拥有全部share，分红进入Trust然后分给各个亲属
这样的话，每年分红多少，可以自己决定，想留些钱在公司发展，只要交30%的税就行

我的假设，里面的bucket公司C,是用来累计过多的收入
在小生意运作时，除了分给家人适当的收入，多于部分都给C，C把这些钱用来投资（买股票或者定存）

等退休了或者把小生意卖了的时候，让C用分红的方式，把钱分给Trust，再自由的分配给家人

achollis

Poweregg 发表于 2012-11-6 23:05
不太明白 “只要是discretionary trust，那么就没有个人真正控股。”
Trust不是entity，但是trustee是代 ...

就如你列出的受益人里，基本都是个人或者由个人直接拥有或控制的公司，但并没有提及由trust控股的公司。trust可以投资任意公司包括public或者privat，但是都不会作为受益人。我曾经咨询过专家这个问题，主要的原因是，trust的收入是要直接或者间接的让受益人受益的，所以由受益人控股的公司是没问题的，但是因为trust本身不受受益人控制，随时可能因为trustee或者appointor的决定更改受益人那么trust拥有的公司也就不满足让当前受益人一定直接或者间接受益的条件了。但是你列出的这条Other legal entities the trustee nominates for this purpose.可能有机会绕过这个，但是没有操作过，不敢确定。

cycwong21

Poweregg 发表于 2012-11-6 22:19
Yes，that's the only disadvantage.........

现在运作小生意，可能该 用公司来运作生意更好，Trust拥有 ...

Div 7A has deeper adversed effect. It's become complicated section to accountants nowaday.

Poweregg

achollis 发表于 2012-11-6 22:19
就如你列出的受益人里，基本都是个人或者由个人直接拥有或控制的公司，但并没有提及由trust控股的公司。t ...

你说的这个的确是一个漏洞，感觉逻辑上也很合理：）

我在Trust Deed起草里面，有一个named beneficiary就写了一个公司，是不是算无意之中避开了这个漏洞呢？
当然，也可能像我的accoutant说的，ATO攻击你，说Trust完全持有公司，说明钱还在Trust里面，没有分出去，让你pay 46.5的税

要避开这个攻击，只能像8楼说的
Trust A用来运作生意，Deed里面写好公司C是named beneficiary

Trust B和Trust A的受益人差不多（除了公司C不是受益人），完全控股公司C

平时A运作生意，C用来存放多于的收入避免超过30%的税，C本身也可以做些投资例如定存，买股票

退休了要用钱，就让C分红给Trust B，在分给受益人

结构超复杂，用到了2个Trust和一个公司
好处是Trust B还可以用来做资产保护作用，放些passive assets例如股票房产（Trust A运作生意本身就有风险，谈不上资产保护）

每年报税，要请会计帮忙报2个Trust 的Tax Return和一个公司的Tax Return

xinxin119

看来蛋蛋又不淡定了~~

stevenhu

taxbreak 发表于 2012-11-6 21:21
你的客人可能是关于Super的working test 的audit吧?
Consulting fee/Director fee 是完全合理的 不少dire ...

excessive payment will be treated as unfranked dividend

stevenhu

Poweregg 发表于 2012-11-6 23:35
你说的这个的确是一个漏洞，感觉逻辑上也很合理：）

我在Trust Deed起草里面，有一个named beneficiary ...

It is the best way for the small business owner.

For the discretionary trust, you should elect to be a family trust. otherwise the discretionary trust cannot pass the small shareholder exemption in the imputation system, when franking credits is more than $5000 which is received by the discretionary trust.  

If lots of money is sitting in your company bank account and you take some of money for private use, then Division 7A will apply.

Why do not you set up a SMSF? Each year, all of your family member receive $25000 for director fee or consulting fee. then make a salary sacrifice agreement, and contributing these money into your SMSF. these contribution will be taxed on 15% tax. after pay the tax, you can invest the money into the share market or property. When you sell them, the super fund will get a discount 33.3% for the capital gain. the capital gain will be only taxed by 15%.

JohnnySu

stevenhu 发表于 2012-11-7 14:00
excessive payment will be treated as unfranked dividend

No. It would not.
The tax implication on individual level is the same so the ATO would not bother.
Also for a payment to be treated as dividend the recipient has to be a shareholder of the company, which may not be the case here.

stevenhu

taxbreak 发表于 2012-11-7 16:31
No. It would not.
The tax implication on individual level is the same so the ATO would not bother. ...

INCOME TAX ASSESSMENT ACT 1936 - SECT 109

Excessive payments to shareholders, directors and associates deemed to be dividends
             (1)  If a private company pays or credits to an associated person an amount (in this subsection called the excessive amount ) that is, or purports to be:

                     (a)  remuneration for services rendered by the associated person; or

                     (b)  an allowance, gratuity or compensation in consequence of the retirement of the associated person from an office or employment held by the associated person in the company, or upon the termination of any such office or employment;

so much (if any) of the excessive amount as exceeds an amount that, in the opinion of the Commissioner, is reasonable:

                     (c)  is not an allowable deduction; and

                     (d)  shall, for the purposes of this Act other than Division 11A of Part III, be deemed to be a dividend paid by the company:

                              (i)  to the associated person as a shareholder in the company;

                             (ii)  out of profits derived by the company; and

                            (iii)  on the last day of the year of income of the company in which the excessive payment or credit is made.

Note:          This section does not apply to an amount if the amount is paid to a CGT concession stakeholder under subsection 152-325(1) of the Income Tax Assessment Act 1997 (see subsection 152-325(11)).

             (2)  For the purposes of this section:

                     (a)  a transfer of property shall be deemed to be the payment of an amount equal to the value of the property; and

                     (b)  a reference to an associated person, in relation to a company, is a reference to:

                              (i)  a person who is, or has been, a shareholder in, or director of, the company; or

                             (ii)  a person who is an associate, within the meaning of section 318, of a person who is, or has been, a shareholder in, or director of, the company.

JohnnySu

stevenhu 发表于 2012-11-8 09:32
INCOME TAX ASSESSMENT ACT 1936 - SECT 109

Excessive payments to shareholders, directors and assoc ...

I have never seen the ATO successfully argued a fee payment is excessive or unjustifiable but I suppose it it possible this can still  happen if e.g. the dad is in a coma and he still gets a consulting fee.

stevenhu

taxbreak 发表于 2012-11-8 12:35
I have never seen the ATO successfully argued a fee payment is excessive or unjustifiable but I su ...

you have never seen does not mean ATO won't do that.  

XZI

借宝地问一下， trustee可以同时也是beneficiary吗？比如说我是trustee，把我自己也列为beneficiary。如果哪个beneficiary表现不好，我就不给他们分钱，把钱都分给我自己，这样可行吗？

Poweregg

XZI 发表于 2012-11-8 11:55
借宝地问一下， trustee可以同时也是beneficiary吗？比如说我是trustee，把我自己也列为beneficiary。如果 ...

可以的
但是不能是sole beneficiary

nsw
company trustee can NOT be beneficiary

XZI

Poweregg 发表于 2012-11-8 12:57
可以的
但是不能是sole beneficiary

谢谢回复。再请问一下，如果我用trust买房子，可以自住吗？

Poweregg

XZI 发表于 2012-11-8 12:00
谢谢回复。再请问一下，如果我用trust买房子，可以自住吗？

可以啊

但是房子的任何开销不能deduct taxable income
另外nsw没有的land tax的threhold

JohnnySu

XZI 发表于 2012-11-8 12:00
谢谢回复。再请问一下，如果我用trust买房子，可以自住吗？

Yes you can but houses held in trust are not eligible for the CGT Main Resident Exemption

JohnnySu

stevenhu 发表于 2012-11-8 11:52
you have never seen does not mean ATO won't do that.

I meant it is easy to justify that a payment is reasonable and therefore not excessive.

wsdy007

学习