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楼主:第一教育

学数学有必要吗? [复制链接]

发表于 2013-2-18 13:47 |显示全部楼层
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冬迹之樱 发表于 2013-2-18 12:12
能进投行的就是极少数。

数学最厉害的通常做technical,

数学厉害的是有很多做technical。 不过就算是管理层, 也得懂专业, 否则怎样让人信服? 我就知道很多投行的管理层是数学背景。
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发表于 2013-2-18 13:48 |显示全部楼层
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条条大路通罗马,在澳洲,每个人学习自己擅长的就好了,这也符合进化论。

发表于 2013-2-18 13:59 |显示全部楼层
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我觉得没啥大用,学了那么多年,解了那么多题,费了那么多脑子,没觉得给生活带来什么好处,如果刨去考试分数之类的,看不出为什么要学那么深,那么多。

发表于 2013-2-18 14:01 |显示全部楼层
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买东西不用找零的话,就不用学了。

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发表于 2013-2-18 14:12 |显示全部楼层
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brookrock 发表于 2013-2-18 14:38
哦谢谢回答
我想知道如果这孩子中途不去TAFE读,而是一直在高中读,到了12年级需要高中毕业的时候也会有 ...

读到Year 12就参加HSC考试,HSC考试有不及格之说吗?好像没有啊,请砖家来解答。

HSC考试科目里数学不是必修项目,不读不考也没问题的。

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发表于 2013-2-18 14:14 |显示全部楼层
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zzz 发表于 2013-2-18 14:59
我觉得没啥大用,学了那么多年,解了那么多题,费了那么多脑子,没觉得给生活带来什么好处,如果刨去考试分 ...

本来就是。
高中数学本来就没必要人人都读。

所以澳洲的高考制度设计还是非常好的。

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退役斑竹 2012年度奖章获得者 2009年度奖章获得者

发表于 2013-2-18 14:15 |显示全部楼层
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patrickzhu 发表于 2013-2-18 15:12
读到Year 12就参加HSC考试,HSC考试有不及格之说吗?好像没有啊,请砖家来解答。

HSC考试科目里数学不是 ...


好几年前,认识的一些小留学生没拿到HSC,因为高考的时候,几门的成绩都是<30。最后学校就没给证书。只给COMPLETION LETTER。

具体标准不太清楚。好象是2-3门<30,就不给证书了

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发表于 2013-2-18 14:24 |显示全部楼层
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Speech: Brian Schmidt's mathematical argument
by:Brian Schmidt
From:The Australian
February 09, 201212:00AM
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/ ... rgcjx-1226265595923

Brian Schmidt is a Nobel laureate and Australian National University professor. He delivered this speech at the Australian Mathematical Sciences Institute forum in Canberra on Tuesday 7 February.

发表于 2013-2-18 14:27 |显示全部楼层
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Copied below:

Speech: Brian Schmidt's mathematical argument

by:Brian Schmidt
From:The Australian
February 09, 201212:00AM


MATHEMATICS is a uniquely powerful toolbox of humanity. Unlike other things, mathematics is logically self-consistent and things are either right or wrong.

Once something is proven right, it is not in question. It is this certainty that makes mathematics such a valuable tool for us.

Everyone in Australia - and I mean everyone - needs to be mathematically literate, or numerate as we like to say, and our country needs many people to be more than numerate: we need people to be highly skilled.

For me, the tools of mathematics go hand in hand with the astronomy I undertake. Each day I spend more time using mathematics than any other activity. I took eight classes at university in mathematics, almost as many classes as I did in physics, and twice as many as I took in astronomy.

Now, you may be thinking that I am special - but let’s just look at my family. My father is a biologist, studying the populations of fish stocks in Alaska and now Canada - he uses sophisticated mathematics every day to understand exactly how to ensure that fish stocks remain at healthy levels into the future - as people fish, or dams release water, or glacial run-off slows or speeds up. Ah, but he is a scientist, you say. True.

My wife is an economist - whom I met at Harvard. Her education in economics has almost as much math in it as mine. Solving challenging coupled differential equations, undertaking sophisticated statistical tests - all to ensure that economies work efficiently at allowing their people to be prosperous - it is way more than simply bean counting.

But we all have PhDs. My Australian cousin and her husband who work in the mining industry as engineers - maths is the fundamental basis of their work, and, for that matter, Australia’s ability to extract minerals and become one of the world’s most wealthy countries.

My other cousin and his wife are farmers in Western Australia who do precision farming, where fertilisers and seeds are linked to a GPS system, and planted out at optimum values - all calculated by them using, you guessed it - math. Farming runs on tiny margins - a few percent – and this sophistication allows them to make money when others go bankrupt.
My brother-in-law in Sydney is a drainer - when he gets his trigonometry wrong, shit literally happens. His son is a commercial airline pilot - math is a matter of life and death for him, and of course, his passengers. I could go on and on. My family is much like any other one in Australia.

Most people who have skilled jobs in Australia have mathematics at the core of that skill base. But everyone needs math. In the modern world, math forms a fundamental basis of interaction with the world. Is my superannuation enough? Can I afford this home loan? Which telephone plan gives me the best value? Do the numbers the politicians quote on TV add up? To answers these questions - questions we all need answers for in order to be successful citizens  - requires a competence in mathematics.
I made my first trip to Australia in 1980. If one looks at the GDP per capita of Singapore, compared to Australia, Australia was twice as rich. In 2010, despite the great economic conditions and strong Aussie dollar, Singapore was richer. And here is a country with no commodities other than its people, and useful location at the junction of the Indian and Pacific Oceans.

Over this period, Singapore has been among the top performers in educating its population as measured by the PISA tests. Australia has not performed poorly, but not as well as the best countries. The OECD says better educational outcomes are a strong predictor for future economic growth.
Imagine if Australia could combine our innate physical wealth with one of the world’s most educated workforces.  The prospects for our country would face would be staggering. So if I cannot convince you with the economics - let me appeal to something else. New Zealand is one of the highest performing nations now at educating its population - significantly outperforming us. Do we really want to get walloped in this trans-Tasman competition? I would be happy with a draw at the top of the table.

So, how do we improve ourselves? Let’s look at the OECD’s findings here. It isn’t rocket science, although it could lead to some.  The best school systems were the most equitable – in which students do well regardless of their socio-economic background.  High performing school systems tend to prioritise teacher pay over smaller class sizes.  High performing systems allow schools to design curricula and establish assessment policies but don’t necessarily allow competition for students.

So a fundamental mathematical education for all of our citizens, founded on the basics, is a crucial ingredient for our future prosperity. But we need not be afraid to move on with the times as well. When I was in Stockholm I got to meet the other Nobel Prize winners. We appeared on the BBC for an hour-long program called Nobel Minds.
When we were asked if there was anything we should be teaching our kids, remarkably, we all agreed on the same thing - this was three physicists, a chemist, two biologists, and three economists: we need to teach the idea behind uncertainty - and with it probability.

Facts and figures are usually filled with uncertainty and to understand what is going on  requires us to come to terms with errors, uncertainties, and the notion of probability. I am reminded of this continually with the obsession that we have in Australia for running polls of the popularity of the Government and the opposition.
I have counted 33 Polls over the past 12 months - Nielsen and Newspoll - that have asked questions such as: Who do you prefer as the next prime minister? These polls typically survey just over a 1000 people, and they have what is described in the fine print as a sampling error of around three per cent. A week ago The Australian Newspoll reported the Prime Minister’s numbers have flatlined. Yesterday, we saw Nielsen report a six per cent jump.

This is great for newspapers. Every poll is news, because the sampling error makes every poll different. The two results I just reported, when looked at the rate the polls are done, are completely consistent. A three per cent change is reported to be statistically signficant in the newspapers - what does that mean? That means that 68.3 per cent of the time polls will give a number that falls within a +/- three per cent band. One in three polls will lie outside of this band, or 10 polls per year.

The six per cent change reported as highly statistically significant, I’ll translate for you. Only one in 20 times would such a deviation occur by random chance.  But it was the biggest fluctuation of the year! And we had 33 polls. It is expected to have such a fluctuation by random chance.

The trends shown in the polls are valid, but for heaven’s sake – how about doing less frequent polls with more people surveyed - so we actually learn something, rather than having confected stories every two weeks about random fluctuations in samples?  The media are feeding on the public’s ignorance of statistics in this instance. Maybe that is too strong - I do not even think the media knows what it is doing in this instance.

I also see the ignorance of statistics [and] uncertainty as one of the principal problems behind the climate change debate around the world. It is imperative to understand uncertainty to understand the climate change debate, but since the public doesn’t have these concepts, scientists skate around the issues, simplifying the truth to the point where it is no longer right.
While mathematics is perfect, it doesn’t always make it easy to predict the future, even with perfect knowledge. The Earth’s climate is what we call a giant non-linear system – often referred to as a chaotic system. Infinitesimal changes lead to significantly different outcomes. We can characterise general behaviour but it is hard to gauge its behaviour exactly.  In this case, our uncertainties are more than infinitesimal. We have real uncertainties. But we persist with figures that are meant to demonstrate global warming are one such example.

Climate models have uncertainty and the Earth has natural variation…which not only varies year to year, but correlates decade to decade and even century to century. It is really hard to design a figure that shows this in a fair way - our brain cannot deal with the correlations easily.

But we do have mathematical ways of dealing with this problem.  The Australian academy reports currently indicate that the models with the effects of CO2 are with 90 per cent statistical certainty better at explaining the data than those without.  Most of us who work with uncertainty know that 90 per cent statistical uncertainty cannot be easily shown within a figure - it is too hard to see.

And this leads to problems. Today’s Australian newspaper reports that the warming of the Earth has slowed over the last decade - that is the temperature versus time data shows a leveling off -  “Warming data show shades of grey”. Yes! And it - and almost everything else we do in life -is shades of grey. But this does not mean it is not happening, it is just that our understanding is not exact.

Since predicting the exact effects of climate change is not yet possible - we have to live with uncertainty - and take the consensus view that warming can cover a wide range of possibilities, and that the view might change as we learn more.
But the good news is from an economics point of view: there are mathematical ways to deal with uncertainty in policy, to maximise the gain while minimising the pain. Ask Warwick McKibbin here at the ANU, who wrote a book on the subject a decade ago with a colleague, and presented one possible way of best dealing with risk. The book is a good read for those inclined - quite mathematical – and is still as relevant today as it was in the past.

Climate change will continue to be an issue - we can do our best to deal with it now - or we can always pass the responsibility, and the consequences, to future generations.

So grounding ourselves back to the present, the place where people are compelled to act, I had the opportunity to sit next to Jac Nasser – chairman of BHP Billiton at lunch today - and we were discussing some of the biggest problems facing Australian companies and that is skill shortages - inevitably for people who are competent at mathematics.

So if we are complacent, hoping the commodity boom will continue to keep Australia prosperous, not addressing the skills shortage through improving our mathematics skills, we are likely to kill the goose that is laying the golden eggs now, our mining industry.

The future for Australia is bright, but it is not guaranteed. Capitalising on Australia’s opportunities will not just happen, it requires strategic science and education policies that adapt to the changing world. We have to be willing to make major changes to how we go about our business.

But what needs to be done is quite simple. Let’s learn from the OECD’s report. We need to have in place a curriculum that ensures that every Australian child - regardless of what school they go - achieves a level of numeracy that will make them successful citizens, and able to work in a wide variety of jobs. This curriculum needs to allow all students who want to develop a higher level skill set in math, to do so. And this curriculum needs to be taught by teachers with competency in those things we teach.
We are not there yet - too many of our kids leave school without a core numeracy. Too many of our kids - who are able and willing to excel at Maths - are taught by teachers without the level of competency required for the subjects they teach. Solving this skills shortage has to be our highest priority. Our kids cannot afford to have the opportunities lost - that result from having a poor mathematical education - and the nation can ill afford to lose talent which is in such short supply.

Brian Schmidt is a Nobel laureate and Australian National University professor. He delivered this speech at the Australian Mathematical Sciences Institute forum in Canberra on Tuesday 7 February.

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发表于 2013-2-18 14:31 |显示全部楼层
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两块老婆饼 发表于 2013-2-18 15:01
买东西不用找零的话,就不用学了。

买东西,你用心算,找钱,人家是不信你的,你会被complain的

发表于 2013-2-18 14:34 |显示全部楼层
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我艹,数学这么多分支,随便就被归一块了

我同意那些概率论,离散数学,高等数学之类的,对于澳鳖实在是难了一些,小学基础数学还是要学的,不然我每次3.6的东西付钱给个10块1,然后就会看到收钱小姑娘抓过来一只计算器摁...
眼睛保健操:(→_→) (↑_ ↑) (←_←) (↓_↓) (→_→)(↑_↑)(←_←)(↓_↓)(→_→) (⊙_⊙)(*_⊙)(⊙_*)
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禁止发言

发表于 2013-2-18 14:39 |显示全部楼层
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patrickzhu 发表于 2013-2-18 15:12
读到Year 12就参加HSC考试,HSC考试有不及格之说吗?好像没有啊,请砖家来解答。

HSC考试科目里数学不是 ...

是的

这就是我想问的

HSC 是高考吧? 但是不是每个高中毕业生都会参加高考

对于那些不参加HSC,同时数学又不好的中学毕业生来说,所谓的“不能顺利毕业”是怎么个意思?
难道让他继续读中学?

发表于 2013-2-18 14:56 |显示全部楼层
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问个简单问题:nsw高中几年级毕业?

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发表于 2013-2-18 16:07 |显示全部楼层
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大杨树 发表于 2013-2-18 15:56
问个简单问题:nsw高中几年级毕业?

10年级毕业就是School Certificate,12年级毕业就是Higher School Certificate
所以按照中国的习惯,SC就是初中毕业文凭,HSC就是高中毕业文凭

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发表于 2013-2-18 16:11 |显示全部楼层
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brookrock 发表于 2013-2-18 15:39
是的

这就是我想问的

10年级之后继续读到12年级毕业,我的理解是
全部同学都要参加HSC,这是强制的。
但是,
考了HSC,不一定要报考大学。
也就是说HSC必考,但是成绩是否计入ATAR是可选项。

请专家来核实

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发表于 2013-2-18 16:14 |显示全部楼层
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D妈妈 发表于 2013-2-18 15:15
好几年前,认识的一些小留学生没拿到HSC,因为高考的时候,几门的成绩都是<30。最后学校就没给证书。 ...

请教小M大师,什么情况下HSC不及格?BAND几?
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发表于 2013-2-18 16:17 |显示全部楼层
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seth_chen 发表于 2013-2-18 15:34
我艹,数学这么多分支,随便就被归一块了

我同意那些概率论,离散数学,高等数学之类的,对于澳鳖实 ...

概率论,离散数学,高等数学这些不是大学里学的吗?

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发表于 2013-2-18 16:19 |显示全部楼层
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总体来说,我认为说数学锻炼思维啥的是和学乐器陶冶情操一样,忽悠了很多人,也害了很多人,特别是那些根本没有数学sense的孩子和家长们,很不靠谱。

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发表于 2013-2-18 16:24 |显示全部楼层
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patrickzhu 发表于 2013-2-18 17:14
请教小M大师,什么情况下HSC不及格?BAND几?

据我所知是无论单科band几(或者说多少分), 最后所有的学科算出的ATAR低于30.00就不告诉是多少了, 用个 * 之类
的符号填在ATAR栏

但是好像这样也算是高中毕业吧,我猜 lz所说的那样“高中不能完成”的都是12年级之前就自己退学了去干别的的

不过好像最低的大学录取ATAR也得50多吧, ATAR30-50一般来讲也不能直接上大学的

退役斑竹 2007 年度奖章获得者 2008年度奖章获得者 参与宝库编辑功臣 2012年度奖章获得者 2009年度奖章获得者 2010年度奖章获得者 2014年度奖章获得者 2015年度奖章获得者

发表于 2013-2-18 16:28 |显示全部楼层
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limit-2010 发表于 2013-2-18 17:24
据我所知是无论单科band几(或者说多少分), 最后所有的学科算出的ATAR低于30.00就不告诉是多少了, 用 ...

这不是我问的问题,是我语文有问题,我现在英文不好中文也不好

现在假设我读到12年级了,参加HSC考试,我的目标不考大学,就要个HSC文凭。
那么,有不及格-拿不到HSC证书-的底线吗?

发表于 2013-2-18 16:32 |显示全部楼层
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patrickzhu 发表于 2013-2-18 17:11
10年级之后继续读到12年级毕业,我的理解是
全部同学都要参加HSC,这是强制的。
但是,

朱版说的有道理
记得12年级的时候好像有填一个表格, 里面有一项是希不希望得到一个ATAR

考HSC是12年级必须的, 算ATAR是想申请大学的人才需要的
HSC是有board of studies负责, ATAR是由UAC来算的(Board of Studies给UAC提供每科的单科分数)

Board of Studies会给一个这样的证书-   http://www.boardofstudies.nsw.ed ... _hsc_cert_large.jpg
还会有每科的成绩单。 这大概就相当于毕业证书了吧
UAC过一阵会给出一个offer of admission的信, 应该是相当于录取通知书。
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发表于 2013-2-18 16:41 |显示全部楼层
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patrickzhu 发表于 2013-2-18 17:28
这不是我问的问题,是我语文有问题,我现在英文不好中文也不好

现在假设我读到12年级了,参加HSC考 ...

这个不太清楚,好像不算有

只要去考试,都会得到一个分数的,都算努力了吧

除非最后没有合理原因没去考试, 那个学科就没有成绩了
假如最后除去这个(或者这些)学科,不够10个units, 就不成了

不过我也不太确定。。。

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发表于 2013-2-18 16:48 |显示全部楼层
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patrickzhu 发表于 2013-2-18 17:07
10年级毕业就是School Certificate,12年级毕业就是Higher School Certificate
所以按照中国的习惯,SC就 ...

已经取消school certificate 了。或者高中,或者tafe.

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君子之交淡如水

发表于 2013-2-18 16:51 |显示全部楼层
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老辈子传下来的:学好数理化,走遍天下都不怕啊

2013年度奖章获得者

发表于 2013-2-18 16:57 |显示全部楼层
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gwang 发表于 2013-2-18 14:33
学好数学可能真的对日常生活没什么大用,不过我看还没有家长因此对孩子数学不好就听之任之的。
都是补习加 ...

现实中,亚洲父母对数学足够重视了,

都有了数学不好就世界末日的感觉了

发表于 2013-2-18 17:23 |显示全部楼层
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teiyuau 发表于 2013-2-17 11:29
帮顶,家里有数学老师

补习班开得好就会赚大钱哦!老叶也是数学老师出身的,现在传说是在澳洲的上海首富。
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发表于 2013-2-18 17:25 |显示全部楼层
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ruru2008 发表于 2013-2-18 18:23
补习班开得好就会赚大钱哦!老叶也是数学老师出身的,现在传说是在澳洲的上海首富。  ...

本人孤陋寡闻,请问老叶是谁呀?

发表于 2013-2-18 17:30 |显示全部楼层
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吃草的牛 发表于 2013-2-18 17:25
本人孤陋寡闻,请问老叶是谁呀?

http://www.oursteps.com.au/bbs/f ... read&tid=213191
100分先生的秘密 - 叶老师补习班

发表于 2013-2-18 17:35 |显示全部楼层
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ruru2008 发表于 2013-2-18 18:23
补习班开得好就会赚大钱哦!老叶也是数学老师出身的,现在传说是在澳洲的上海首富。  ...

嗯,幾年前,被告到ATO,聽說可慘了。

发表于 2013-2-18 19:23 |显示全部楼层
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如果把数学撤了,华人学生的一个优势就没了,我怀疑这个动机

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