请教各位高人～～关于deceased estate & non-resident beneficiary的问题～～～

shubaobao

the sole beneficiary & trustee is living in uk, non resident and presently entitled.

deceased estate income有
- bank interest (一部分是deceased person以前的bank account 没有tax withheld, 一部分是trustee 新开的bank account 有non-resident withholding tax)
-dividends (mostly franked dividends, some unfranked dividends with no tax withheld)
-capital losses...

我的问题是：
在做deceased estate的tax return时，我应该include bank interest with tax withheld 和 franked dividends吗？
我知道如果是单独的non resident individual tax return是不需要包括这些进去的。但是deceased estate的情况呢？

如何计算trustee的tax liability？ 是否应该按照bank interest 10%, unfranked dividend 30%, 还是gross income @ non resident marginal tax return?

如果按照bank interest 10%计算， deductions 是否不重要了？因为没有除了interest 和dividend以外的income

non-resident beneficiary需要lodge tax return吗？

问题有些多有些乱～话说今天被这个问题弄的有点晕。而且一直没有找到相关的source。。。  希望各位大大能帮忙解惑啊。。有分分。。。

shubaobao

顶一个～

Poweregg

the sole beneficiary & trustee
=============================
这个有点怪啊
一般来说，trustee不能是sole beneficiary的，这样好像有逻辑问题

The sole trustee cannot be the sole beneficiary because a trust is a legal relationship between a trustee and the beneficiary or beneficiaries.
If a sole trustee were also the sole beneficiary, then this would be an agreement that a person had with themselves. The law says that no trust can exist in these circumstances.
However, a trustee can be a beneficiary of the trust as long as there is at least one other beneficiary as well.

shubaobao

就不叫trustee，叫executor吧。
deceased person's will里面指定了她唯一的女儿是 beneficiary，也是 executor of deceased estate

Poweregg

testamentary trust or just a will？

shubaobao

just a will

Poweregg

An executor has certain taxation responsibilities on behalf of the deceased person and the deceased estate.
Some of the responsibilities include:
notifying us of the death
lodging prior-year tax returns on behalf of the deceased person
lodging a 'date of death' (final) personal tax return on behalf of the deceased person
applying for a trust tax file number for the deceased estate if trust tax returns need to be lodged
preparing and lodging trust tax returns for the deceased estate, if necessary
making distributions to beneficiaries
paying tax on behalf of certain beneficiaries.
Any tax liability that may arise from your role as executor is separate from your own personal tax liability.
You do not include any of the income of the deceased person or deceased estate in your own personal tax return, except for any trust income you received as a beneficiary.

banzhiyan

mark

Poweregg

Tax rates - non-resident beneficiary
If the beneficiary is a non-resident of Australia for tax purposes, you are liable to pay tax on the beneficiary's share of the trust income distributed.
The non-resident tax rates apply. These are set out in Individual income tax rates.
No Medicare levy is payable.
Interest and dividends are not included in the non-resident beneficiary's trust income. Instead, these are taxed by having a non-resident withholding tax deducted and paid to us. The withholding tax rate varies for different countries and between interest and dividends. Fully franked dividends are not subject to withholding tax. To find the appropriate withholding rate, phone us on 13 28 61.

shubaobao

呵呵～这些都看过啦。ato网站上的。 还是no idea啊。

roy99883630

说实话，不晕，正常情况。

tax return应该有两个（如果该客户是在报税的该财政年度逝世的话），一个是逝世的客户的，记得选最后一次报税，一份是trust的，时间点在逝世当日，然后根据得到收益的日期将收益归纳到不同的报税个体中去。

trust 本身，不是客观存在的实体，它的收益（特别是在这个案例里），你可以这么看，你只要把它的收入来龙去脉弄明白，总体的收入和已经缴纳的税款弄明白，就可以了。

trust本身的tax return，按这个情况，没有loss，应该按要求把所有的收益分配出去，它的收益归零tax liability也归零

剩下的，因为这个trust本身只有一个受益人，相对来说很简单，把所有的收益，转到受益人名下即可（包括所有的已经缴纳的税款）

受益人目前在英国，很可能会是non resident for tax purpuse（你也提到这点）所以在做tax return时需要注意，获得遗产本身在澳洲是免税的，但遗产所产生的收益是需要缴税的，这点千万主意了。

另外一点，请千万做好收到遗产后对受益人而言的cost base，否则今后很可能抓瞎的说。

希望有所帮助。

Poweregg

原帖由 shubaobao 于 19/7/2012 19:39 发表
呵呵～这些都看过啦。ato网站上的。 还是no idea啊。

ATO不是说了
Interest and dividends的withhold是根据国家不一样的，给他们电话问问
另外Fully franked dividends are not subject to withholding tax

就像楼上说的
死亡日期为分割，之前的财产是去世的人要交的
之后的财产，如果产生income（利息，不带full franked分红）都要预先交税
交多少，电话ato，和他们说受益人在uk，问他们好了

fly081

路过打酱油的。 看到一个税局网站，不知道有没有关系：
http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses ... t/preview/64162.htm

里面说的australian payer感觉应该是trustee(australia?uk?)，澳洲银行看到foreign trustee应该已经扣税了吧。

‘You don't need to lodge an Australian income tax return if the only Australian-source income you earn is interest, dividends or royalties on which foreign resident withholding tax has been correctly withheld. Such income does not need to be included in an Australian income tax return.’

[ 本帖最后由 fly081 于 2012-7-19 19:49 编辑 ]

shubaobao

今年是第二年。所以只有estate的tax retun， dod return去年已经做了。
另外～所有的shares 都已卖。。
可是如果做non resident tax return时，已经withheld 过tax的 income 是不放进tax return的。按照你的说法～所有收入（包括已缴税的）都转入受益人名下，那是说 non resident beneficiary 要再lodge 一个tax return? 而且所有franking credits都flow to beneficiary? 感觉不太对。。

shubaobao

原帖由 fly081 于 2012-7-19 19:48 发表
路过打酱油的。 看到一个税局网站，不知道有没有关系：
http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses ... t/preview/64162.htm

里面说的australian payer感觉应该是trustee(australia?uk?)，澳洲银行看到foreig ...

问题就是，之前的bank interest 和dividend登记的地址还是australian.所以没有withhold tax. 但是后来新开的account已经withhold tax了

fly081

应该是扣掉吧，安全，大不了让他女儿在英国在claim回来；不扣掉，如果有什么问题，直接就是45%。

roy99883630

是否能把情况介绍得更细致点。有几个时间点得弄明白。
第一，现在是在讨论哪个财政年度。
第二，逝世的客户是在哪个财政年度去世的。
第三，现在这个遗产trust里面还有什么？之前有存款，有房产，有股票，现在呢？
第四，你提及股票已经卖完了，在哪个财年交易的。

如果本财年只有现金存在银行生成利息而没有任何其他的交易，这和海外人士存款在银行得到利息一样，one off transaction，银行支付利息时代扣税，一次扣税了事。Trust报收入并报告将利息收入分给受益人，但受益人没有需要做退税

若是在本年度，有买卖股票什么的交易，就需要为这个股票买卖产生的capital gains为海外个人报税了

不过我还有个疑问，有房产的情况下，哪怕房子空在那里，也是有各种支出的说，你们就没想过帮客户操作下？

shubaobao

1. 现在讨论的是2011/12
2. 客户2010/11 去世
3. 房产已卖。股票已卖。应该只有少少存款 其他全部转出了
3.全部股票2011／12年卖掉（注意没有转到客户女儿名下，是直接卖掉, huge capital losses）

是这样的。因为所有的地址都改成了律师的，而不是客户女儿在uk的，所以银行没有扣税。unfranked dividend也没有扣税。 但是新开的银行帐户因为用了女儿的uk 地址，所以有扣税。and that is the only income that has tax withheld.

roy99883630

这么说来，就基本没什么东西了。
这个，我也有点晕了，不是太常见，我没有经手过这样的案例。
3,房产和股票卖出了，若是在10－11财政年度，没啥好操心的；若是在11-12年度，可以抵扣股票的损失，不知道最终是gain还是loss.
3again？ ,咱做会计的是不是都不会数数呀？我的经典故事是用计算器算100除以10等于多少 如果房子不是这年卖的，没办法，只能这么扔着不管了。

如果在11－12整个财年，产生了两类收入，一个是没有扣税的利息收入和unfranked dividend，一个是已经withhold tax的income,我觉得比较稳妥的方式，是将总收入（含withheld tax）合并，将withheld tax作为tax credit，然后按non resident递交ITR。这样做，即使ATO复查，也是可以解释明白逻辑的；其他两个选择，一个是不报，律师地址的那块收入，ATO到时候是有权利追诉的；如果报，但只报律师地址的收入，也有隐藏了uk地址收入的嫌疑。

如果整体收入都没有多少，估计怎么报，ATO都无所谓。之前我们业内道听途说的消息（不保证准确性）是data matching不超过100块的差异（是assessable income不是tax credit），ATO完全不查

当然，12－13年，如果所有利息分红收入都已withhold tax，那就按照ATO的指示，从此在个人收入报税上当没这回事好了，休闲得回家钓鱼去

shubaobao

typo...typo..汗死。。
我是第一次遇到这种情况。。。感觉这种情况不是很常见。。当然本身也是菜鸟级的啦。
现在的想法是只报没有withhold tax那部分收入。不报有withhold tax的bank interest & franked dividend...

fly081

keep us posted.

roy99883630

原帖由 shubaobao 于 2012-7-19 21:20 发表
typo...typo..汗死。。
我是第一次遇到这种情况。。。感觉这种情况不是很常见。。当然本身也是菜鸟级的啦。
现在的想法是只报没有withhold tax那部分收入。不报有withhold tax的bank interest & franked dividend...

做完后记得回来告诉我们一声这单是怎么结束的，虽然在这个论坛里除了业内人士基本没有人会遇到相关问题

Momotaba

原帖由 shubaobao 于 2012-7-19 18:08 发表
the sole beneficiary & trustee is living in uk, non resident and presently entitled.

deceased estate income有
- bank interest (一部分是deceased person以前的bank account 没有tax withheld, 一部分是trus ...

Firstly I agree with Poweregg that a trustee can be a beneficiary but a trustee cannot be a sole beneficiary.

Secondly, in regards to the liability of the trustee, see the following:

The trustee is not taxed on that part of the non-resident beneficiary's share of net income that consists of:

Interest Dividends (franked or unfranked)
Royalties
This is because withholding tax should have been deducted from these components (except franked dividends) and is the final liability to tax.

In regards to the above argument please see the following link of trust return instructions 2012:

http://www.ato.gov.au/taxprofess ... p;page=104&H104

So to me if the interest received by the deceased eastate has been subjuct to withholding tax, the trustee of the estate is not liable as the withholding tax is the final tax.

With regards to dividends, again if it is unfranked dividends it will be subject to withholding tax, if it is fully franked dividend then it is not assessable to the non resident; therefore the trustee will not be assessed on those.

Again the link to support the above opinion is the same link:

http://www.ato.gov.au/taxprofess ... p;page=104&H104


Lastly, with regards to capital loss, the question is which entity incurred this capital loss? Is that from the deceased person or from the deceased estate? Because you can not transfer the capital loss from the deceased person to the deceased estate cause they are two different entities.

The following ATO ID will support the above argument.

ATO ID 2003/557: Income tax Deduction: tax losses - deceased taxpayer

Issue: Can accumulated tax losses to the date of death of a deceased taxpayer be carried forward and deducted by the deceased estate udner section 36-15 of the Income Tax Assessment Act 1997?

Decision: No!

To me I think tax losses do include capital losses.


With regards to whether a non resident benenficiary needs to lodge a tax return, see the following

A non-resident beneficiary still needs to lodge a return even though the trustee has been assessed and taxed on that trust income.  A credit is allowed for the tax already paid by the trustee to avoid double taxation.

If the tax paid by the trustee exceeds the tax payable by the beneficiary, the excess may be refunded to the beneficiary.

References: Income Tax Assessment Act 1936 section 98B and subsections 98A(2) and 98A(3)


PS regarding trust and non resident beneficiaries, generally section 98 will apply.

Hope this makes sense to you!

[ 本帖最后由 Momotaba 于 2012-7-20 09:33 编辑 ]

Max01

Tax rates - non-resident beneficiary
If the beneficiary is a non-resident of Australia for tax purposes, you are liable to pay tax on the beneficiary's share of the trust income distributed.

The non-resident tax rates apply. These are set out in Individual income tax rates.

No Medicare levy is payable.

Interest and dividends are not included in the non-resident beneficiary's trust income. Instead, these are taxed by having a non-resident withholding tax deducted and paid to us. The withholding tax rate varies for different countries and between interest and dividends. Fully franked dividends are not subject to withholding tax.

For my understanding, you need to declare income of the deceased estate that a non-resident withholding tax has not been deducted-the interest and dividends income under the lawyer's address

Link from ATO:http://www.ato.gov.au/individual ... amp;page=25&H25