问有经验的同学一个关于J２EE consultant的问题

petiteway

最近接到一个公司的面试通知，这个公司是做consulting的，规模不小，我当时发简历的时候没有注意到他们只招consultant，以为他们要J２EE Developer，就发了，因为我在目前的公司一直是做J２EE 开发的，以后发展方向是J２EE Architect，已经考完了除Architect以外的所有的SUN的认证，所以跳槽也想继续找开发和设计类的工作。

目前这个公司说要我去面试而且问我如果做consultant需要经常去客户哪里，能不能适应，我有点拿不定主意，因为对consultant的工作不是很了解，不知道将来的发展方向怎么样，是否像Architect一样有前途／钱途。

另外我J２EE开发的经验也只有５年（国内３年，这里差不多２年），觉得如果做consultant就失去了锻炼设计和开发能力的机会了，也是拿不定主意。

所以请问有经验的同学们，J２EE consultant到底做些什么？前途如何？谢谢。

jands

做 consultant '錢'途無量啊, 我公司裡請的 senior oracle consultant 每個薪水估計都 10 W 以上.

consultant 基本上什麼都要會,客戶用什麼你就要會什麼.

talpey

听起来，楼主谈到的这家consultanting公司是不是Accenture？

coolioo

喜欢Coding就不要做了，喜欢说的，能口吐莲花的，一定要去，否则就是屈才了。

个人感觉应该做，可以做Architecture的consultant......

kawara

原帖由 coolioo 于 2007-5-15 22:13 发表
喜欢Coding就不要做了，喜欢说的，能口吐莲花的，一定要去，否则就是屈才了。

个人感觉应该做，可以做Architecture的consultant......

那是BA.

consultant 这边是指基本上每天在client side干活（相对于我们在公司干活）,活和developer差不多。

很多人不愿意，在人家那里干活可不像在自己公司那么轻松，我没做过，我想可能不能整天坐自己的事情了。

现在很多公司只做项目，找consultant。找这个得很多，报酬会相对高一些。

coolioo

错，consultant有两种，一种是你说的，雇佣兵，另一种是domain or technology expert，后一种是很NB的，一天几百上千都有可能. 做后一种必须会忽悠，就是你说的人家都听不懂，但觉得非常有道理，达到这个境界的不多啊

MaxChan

在我印象里consultant是和经验相关的，行业经验或者技术功底要非常深厚（两者兼备那就是奇才了），而且还能侃得出来，头头是道的那种，不但能呼悠客户还能呼悠程序员。
如果是派到客户那去直接做开发的就是偏技术的consultant了，ThoughtWorks有很多这些可以直接进入开发一线的consultant，另外有些consultant是为客户出方案的，有些就是做培训的。不能一概而论。

[ 本帖最后由 MaxChan 于 2007-5-16 09:16 编辑 ]

Kingfisher

一般一个consultant firm会有sernior和junior的consultant，Senior的人会分析客户的需求，然后出solution，做一些架构设计方面的工作（LZ就适合这个职位），一些junior的会配合senior的人做设计方面的工作，以锻炼他们的能力，但是很多具体的开发工作还是junior consultant做的。

这是我见到的consultant firm的结构。

kawara

原帖由 coolioo 于 2007-5-15 23:47 发表
错，consultant有两种，一种是你说的，雇佣兵，另一种是domain or technology expert，后一种是很NB的，一天几百上千都有可能. 做后一种必须会忽悠，就是你说的人家都听不懂，但觉得非常有道理，达到这个境界的不 ...

找LZ德显然是第一种

petiteway

谢谢大家,今天已经去那个公司面试了,个人感觉他们要的是开发类的consultant,就是coolioo 说的第一种,虽然他们还要有另外两轮面试(一共三轮),但是我个人已经比较倾向于.....不去了 :)

感觉跟我自己给自己定的发展方向完全不是一路的........另外kawara说的也对,到客户那里干活是没机会偷懒的,估计也没机会深入学习什么,只怕干到最后就象在国内专做项目的公司一样,技术用了一大把,实际什么都不精.那就毁了.

个人觉得跳槽还是要跳对了方向,继续努力吧~~~~~~~~~~~

谢谢大家的讨论....

笨鼠

petiteway是不是 P 老大的马甲啊...呵呵

petiteway

不是不是.不知道谁是P老大

Kingfisher

P老大 =PeterWay

zzgirl

i thought it's PeterWay as well

if you can learn lots different projects & environment, why not? they are experiences. then you can do the second type of consultants. More chance, learn more.

petiteway

换不同的项目和环境没有问题，但是要是不停的换技术的话，可就把人毁了，在国内已经深受其害了，呵呵。

今天又受到让我去第２轮面试的通知，而且还要有第３轮，就当去锻炼面试能力把。。。。

zzgirl

其实我很疑惑Architect的.除了新的系统需要一开始花很多时间设计,维护项目的时候,不都是改一点点的嘛?

而且,我现在在的Agile team, 我觉得,设计的部分很少,或者说,是花的时间很少.常常被人嘲笑是一堆烂货,可是,客户能很快用起来,就会很开心.设计得再好,更新换代那么快,有时候又不值得.
唉......

greanbean

agree! :)

原帖由 MaxChan 于 2007-5-16 09:14 发表
在我印象里consultant是和经验相关的，行业经验或者技术功底要非常深厚（两者兼备那就是奇才了），而且还能侃得出来，头头是道的那种，不但能呼悠客户还能呼悠程序员。
如果是派到客户那去直接做开发的就是偏技术 ...

greanbean

I think as a consultant, you're supposed to have a deep undertsanding of almost eveything and also have gained some in-depth experience in those aspects as well.

But you'll not be expected to work in a specific area for long, but instead you will have to be very adaptive and be ready to jump onto different aspects according to the current needs.

In one word, you're supposed to be able to do a good job in whatever areas if needed, i.e. client-facing and requirements gathering, conceptual design, detail deisgn, development, testing and deployment and whatever coudl be an issue in the project for you to resolve.

Just don't be expected to be very focused on ONE single technology or aspect!

petiteway

To: zzgirl:

1.Agile并不意味着撩草的设计,相反，敏捷开发需要更强的对设计和用户需求的把握能力，也许前期设计是很快，但是不断的叠代过程也是必不可少的，全算下来，不能说在设计上花的时间不多。你说的你们那种开发方式有点象cowboy coding了，敏捷开发先进于cowboy coding的方面是它是严格遵循预先定义好的处理规范的。

2."设计得再好,更新换代那么快" ---- 无语。。。。

3.Architect并不是一般意义上的设计人员，其实从知识层面上和技术层面上，Consultant和Architect很类似，只专一个技术的不可能成为合格的Architect，在开发结构上Architect是在设计人员上层的。

zzgirl

How many companies need Architect? my previous company used to have Architect but for me he more like a coach. yes, he started a project for the build script for our system. and it's quite fun for developers, but i am not sure whether customer will happy with that. you know those change cannot deliever any value for customer directly. Well, it is really help to reduce dev time in the future. I don't think most company would support this kind of project.

The point i try to make is that we have to find a balance......good quality code and value for customer......

Also, you talked something about Refacting. As a tester, i am really worried about it. Unit test doesn't work all the time. in lots of cases refacting will break the system. and refacting is suppose not to involve testers, just existing automation test scripts. What a ideal world.....

Kingfisher

原帖由 zzgirl 于 2007-5-18 12:11 发表
How many companies need Architect? my previous company used to have Architect but for me he more like a coach. yes, he started a project for the build script for our system. and it's quite fun for  ...

Good Point!!! +++++分！

petiteway

To: zzgirl:

１.重构是必不可少的，是叠代过程的一部分。指望一次完美的设计是不现实的。我们只是要尽可能的减少叠代的次数和规模而已。很多时候果断的重构是非常必要甚至必须的，至于你说重构break了你们的系统，呵呵，＂break＂这个东西可真要见仁见智了，呵呵

２.Architect很少做Full time Permernant 的，大多都是做Contractor或者在Consulting firm的。

３."he started a project for the build script for our system. and it's quite fun for developers, but i am not sure whether customer will happy with that. you know those change cannot deliever any value for customer directly. Well, it is really help to reduce dev time in the future. I don't think most company would support this kind of project.
",没明白你要说什么。。。。。

４.作为测试人员，重构确实不需要你们involve。

zzgirl

sorry for my poor English. I can type in chinese at home. see you later:)

petiteway

别客气，回头见

smartmonkey

To: zzgirl:
1.
For a waterfall project, it definitely need an architecture. they won't write any code until the architect define all the system requirement.
For a agile project, it is not necessarily need an architecture. all developer may get involve  the system design.

2.
the architect of your previous company seems only a developer/term lead  in an agile project.
build script is written in the 0 iteration. every developer could do it. agile project should be fun. every one want to work in a fun environment. work hard play hard. agile concern quality. it is up to you to put more money in delivery a quality project or put more money in maintenance. I know a bank put 1 million/month to maintain an existing system.

3. Unit test should always work, otherwise developer shouldn't check in to such as continuous build process tool such as cruisecontrol. the tester only test the successful build. Hence, you don't need to worry about unit tests.

4. As I know, the responsibility of a tester in agile project is test case design, writing automated test, fulfil performance test and UAT.  manual test take so much time for every change of the code.

more testing:
Join Continuous Integration and Testing Conference, It's free.
http://www.citconf.com/sydney2007/

smartmonkey

To: zzgirl:
1.
For a waterfall project, it definitely need an architecture. they won't write any code until the architect define all the system requirement.
For a agile project, it is not necessarily need an architecture. all developer may get involve  the system design.

2.
the architect of your previous company seems only a developer/term lead  in an agile project.
build script is written in the 0 iteration. every developer could do it. agile project should be fun. every one want to work in a fun environment. work hard play hard. agile concern quality. it is up to you to put more money in delivery a quality project or put more money in maintenance. I know a bank put 1 million/month to maintain an existing system.

3. Unit test should always work, otherwise developer shouldn't check in to such as continuous build process tool such as cruisecontrol. the tester only test the successful build. Hence, you don't need to worry about unit tests.

4. As I know, the responsibility of a tester in agile project is test case design, writing automated test, fulfil performance test and UAT.  manual test take so much time for every change of the code.

more testing:
Join Continuous Integration and Testing Conference, It's free.
http://www.citconf.com/sydney2007/

Kingfisher

牛人真多！  欢迎讨论~~~    我++分

zzgirl

原帖由 smartmonkey 于 2007-5-18 21:49 发表
To: zzgirl:
1.
For a waterfall project, it definitely need an architecture. they won't write any code until the architect define all the system requirement.
For a agile project, it is not neces ...

怪我怪我,英文不好,让大家都误解了.

关于build scripts 重新修改的项目,是因为原有的太糟糕了,而且每次build的时候因为Unit test运行,要花很长时间.所以有了这么个事儿. 我的意思也就是,因为之前不细致的设计,而导致后期工作的繁重.再加上,公司为了满足少量高水平的开发人员的兴趣,就搞了个这么个东西.  

很晕,但我也没什么资格说什么,只是发表了tester和BA的看法. smartmonkey提的人人参与设计,我也是看到的,觉得不错.但是,很多习惯了Waterfall的程序员,对agile team系统分析不够提出的质疑.以及我在平时工作中碰到的问题,让我对agile的系统分析产生了疑问. 希望有经验的分析人员提点一下,作为tester可以在哪些方面帮助developer进行分析.之前的设计,我也是参与的,但是多数只是问问他们,这个考虑没有,那个考虑没有.并没有直接的反馈.

关于refactoring break system,我指的是,毕竟automation 的unit test 不可靠.当然是pass了才build啦,但是unit testpass了,并不代表系统没有问题.甚至于一些所谓基于界面的程序员写的automation customer testing也通过了,还是没用,某些功能还是失败了. automation不是万能的...
某些问题的出现也是可以理解的,毕竟Unit test 只是Unit层面的,不是系统层面的.但是,如果提高automation test呢? 不然每次refactoring,都让人不放心啊.

另外,感觉真正的automated test script,不是tester写出来的,而是开发人员.那东西对写程序的要求很高哦,简直就是另一个系统嘛!我可不是全才......

smartmonkey

关于build scripts 重新修改的项目,是因为原有的太糟糕了,而且每次build的时候因为Unit test运行,要花很长时间.所以有了这么个事儿.
In my experience, unit tests take tiny time to run. functional test take ages to run.  

我的意思也就是,因为之前不细致的设计,而导致后期工作的繁重.
that's why you need refactoring. It took me more than a week to refactor the build script. the result is the build process time reduce a lot.

再加上,公司为了满足少量高水平的开发人员的兴趣,就搞了个这么个东西.  
I don't know what you mean .

很晕,但我也没什么资格说什么,只是发表了tester和BA的看法. smartmonkey提的人人参与设计,我也是看到的,觉得不错.但是,很多习惯了Waterfall的程序员,对agile team系统分析不够提出的质疑.以及我在平时工作中碰到的问题,让我对agile的系统分析产生了疑问.
Firstly, everyone's opinion is valuable. we know things when we discuss. discuss with me if you think there is anything you disagree with me.
usually waterfall developers are not comfortable with pairing and TDD. if they are doing those practise they will design the code before diving into writing the code. I hope that will help you to understand a little bit. in terms of BA and tester, there is nothing to help for design. your responsibilities is understanding the domain and make sure all the functionalities are right.

希望有经验的分析人员提点一下,作为tester可以在哪些方面帮助developer进行分析.之前的设计,我也是参与的,但是多数只是问问他们,这个考虑没有,那个考虑没有.并没有直接的反馈.
for my point of view, BA and Tester are not involved in the design of the code/architect. one thing you can help is design the test case. I think tester never trust developer, that's why we need tester to do some negative testing. another thing is you can write some automated test. for example, use selenium to write functional tests. it's not hard for you to learn such thing. I know some agile tester could write test framework. I talk to someone from UK, he told me one of the tester write use JMeter to create a framework to test performance. probably it is easy for you. but automated test is definitely helpful for an agile team.

关于refactoring break system,我指的是,毕竟automation 的unit test 不可靠.当然是pass了才build啦,但是unit testpass了,并不代表系统没有问题.甚至于一些所谓基于界面的程序员写的automation customer testing也通过了,还是没用,某些功能还是失败了. automation不是万能的...

it depends. if automation customer testing cover all functionalities, it will make sure every functionalities work. something such as browser compatible and user interface look and feel still need BA/tester to do manual testing.

某些问题的出现也是可以理解的,毕竟Unit test 只是Unit层面的,不是系统层面的.但是,如果提高automation test呢? 不然每次refactoring,都让人不放心啊.
That's why developer need write integration tests.

另外,感觉真正的automated test script,不是tester写出来的,而是开发人员.那东西对写程序的要求很高哦,简直就是另一个系统嘛!我可不是全才......
I wrote automated functional test in my last project. on the other hand, my project have a tester to do UAT. It's OK if you can't write script. Tester need to have a good understand of the domain and know every functionalities. sometime need to challenge BA if you feel something is not right.  you should more focus on business rather than tech.

Imperial

看不太懂大家的讨论

我现在做的项目是公司一个内部项目,建一个新的销售系统,
应该说投资也不少,比如说Team每人发T-Shirt, 每周去公费BBQ一次什么的,

Team 里边现在懂技术的暂时只有两人,其他人都是Sales/经理或地区经理什么的，中段了正常工作在Sydney住酒店全职参加项目开发的有一个Vic的经理, 一个SW的销售员,他们都不懂技术.

现在的态势是我要在Business Process分析的阶段做出系统设计(和另一个懂技术的一起),然后编写代码, 估计80%以上的代码要我一个人来编写，另外一个懂技术的是项目经理，他的工作主要是管理，不做具体的开发

可能到项目的中后期阶段增加一个程序员. 不打算找专门的Tester

听大家说起来，难道我算是传说中的 Consultant + Architect + Developer + Tester 了 ?