Novated lease下购车的FBT部分

tiansen90904

请有经验的足友帮忙，

最近在研究用novated lease购车。有个地方是关于fringe benefit tax的部分，有一个问题不明白：

是雇主（我所在的公司）付FBT？还是雇员（我本人）付FBT？

我电话问了公司的相关部门，他们的回答是公司付；

Novated lease的管理公司给我的quote上显示，FBT是我本人付（post tax deduction部分）；

足迹上以往的精华帖上也说是个人付；

ATO的官网上，我看写的是雇主付；

问题是，那么究竟是谁付FBT？通过何种方式？如果我付了FBT，那以后我的公司会不会以某种形式把FBT返还给我？为什么ATO官网上关于FBT的内容只讲了公司负责支付，而没提到个人支付？

非常感谢！

jeff_lawsons

Assuming you are salary sacrificing a motor vehicle by way of a novated lease and your car is not a FBT exempt car.

Under a novated lease arrangement, all of the lease obligations are transferred to the employer, with the employee agreeing to sacrifice an appropriate amount from their salary to ensure the employer is not out of pocket. If the salary sacrifice is in relation to a novated lease, there is an agreement between the employer, the finance company (bank) and the employee, where the employer makes the lease payments to the bank and provides the vehicle to the employee as part of a salary packaging arrangement. If an employee uses a car under a standard novated lease then they cannot claim any car expenses (as they do not own or lease the car).

FBT is payable by the employer, not employee. Generally the employer will consider using employee contribution method in order to reduce the FBT liability (possibly to nil).

“Post tax deduction” is a way of Employee contribution. If the running expenses are incurred by the employee, they can also be treated as employee's contribution and they would reduce the taxable value of the fringe benefit.

Therefore, the employer will generally calculate the grossed-up taxable value and the tax payable after calculating the taxable value and then work backwards to determine how much should be contributed by way of employee contributions to reduce the employer's tax liability to nil.

This is a sample salary sacrifice agreement with novated lease:



Sample Salary sacrifice agreement (Novated Lease)

We understand that you have entered into a lease agreement with (finance company) in relation to the motor vehicle described above. XXX employer agrees to have the lease agreement varied in order to novate the obligation to make lease payments for the motor vehicle to XXX employer. XXX employer will effectively act as the lessee under the lease agreement during the term of the salary sacrifice arrangement.

XXX employer will not acquire the motor vehicle at the expiry of the lease agreement. All obligations that have been novated to XXX employer at the commencement of this agreement will revert back to you on termination of this agreement.

You agree to indemnify the lessor for any damage or loss arising as a result of entering into the novation agreement. This includes any loss or damage suffered because of a breach of the terms of the lease agreement.

The provision of the motor vehicle under the arrangement set out in this document forms part of your remuneration package. You agree to forgo an amount from your salary which is equal to the lease payments for the motor vehicle plus any fringe benefits tax liability associated with the benefit provided, less any input tax credits that can be claimed by XXX employer for the motor vehicle.

tiansen90904

jeff_lawsons 发表于 2016-6-22 14:41
Assuming you are salary sacrificing a motor vehicle by way of a novated lease and your car is not a  ...

You mentioned below point:

Employer is liable for the FBT payment, however, employer would seek to grab the money back to minimize the loss(FBT payment) via various methods. In my case, the method is taking my "Post Tax Deduction";

My comments:

Does my "Post Tax Deduction" go to the company's pocket? Is it normally acceptable within the nation wide?

My another question:

As you mentioned "Input Tax Credit", I think that refers to the "GST" portion of the car value in my case if my understanding is correct.

Theoretically, saving of "GST" is an advantage what a "Novated Lease" bring to leasee. Where does the advantage reflect in? To make leasee understand well, where should we see that we do actually save the "GST" money?

Many thanks!   

jeff_lawsons

tiansen90904 发表于 2016-6-22 17:00
You mentioned below point:

Employer is liable for the FBT payment, however, employer would seek t ...

The principle of salary sacrifice arrangements is that an employer is no better or worse off from having offered an employee a form of remuneration (such as novated lease) other than straight salary.

However as the leased car gives rise to an FBT liability, and as FBT is an employer's obligation, it is generally the case that any FBT amount arising as a result of the novated lease is charged to the employee's salary package post-tax.

The employer then remits the FBT to the Tax Office as required under the FBT rules.

Novated car lease employer outcomes:

•        An employer will need to agree to the salary sacrifice arrangement that allows a staff member to obtain a vehicle through a novated lease
•        The employer makes lease repayments to the finance supplier on behalf of the employee from their pre-tax salary
•        Being a fringe benefit, the arrangement gives rise to an FBT liability, which the employer pays
•        The amount of the FBT liability should have a nil dollar consequence for the employer where post-tax contributions are made
•        Expenses incurred in arranging and maintaining the lease (not the lease repayments) are tax deductible for the employer for the period the lease is active
•        The end of the employment relationship also ends the repayment commitment, as lease obligations revert to the (former) employee
•        When you lease the vehicle from the finance company, you can claim a GST credit for the GST included in the lease charges. However you generally can't claim GST credits if you make input taxed supplies.


Employee outcomes:

•        Salary sacrificing reduces one's taxable income, as the amount is assigned from pre-tax salary
•        The vehicle is of the employee's choice, and exclusive use and ownership
•        As the car is a fringe benefit, FBT must be paid. The employer is liable for this payment, which is then balanced-out within the arrangement
•        FBT is based on the purchase price of the vehicle, and is calculated using one of two options, the more common one being determined by a percentage of the kilometres travelled over a year
•        Making post-tax contributions to the costs of owning the vehicle can reduce the FBT liability by the same amount contributed, up to the statutory percentage of the vehicle's taxable value. This can reduce total tax paid if the employee's tax rate is less than the FBT rate.
•        Usually the vehicle is obtained more cost effectively, as there is:
o        No GST on purchase (claimed by employer)
o        Leasing companies usually get fleet discounts
o        The employer may also get a corporate discount.


You may refer to the following link from more general info:

https://www.strattonfinance.com. ... ackaging-guide.aspx

ergon

20%

ozforever

非fbt exempt employer is unlikely to pay that for u. 看级别够不够吧。一般都得自己掏。你可以选ecm method if you are not at top tax bracket.

tiansen90904

jeff_lawsons 发表于 2016-6-22 17:25
The principle of salary sacrifice arrangements is that an employer is no better or worse off from  ...

Thanks for sharing the very helpful website

tiansen90904

ergon 发表于 2016-6-22 18:05
20%

这20%指的是？

tiansen90904

ozforever 发表于 2016-6-22 18:37
非fbt exempt employer is unlikely to pay that for u. 看级别够不够吧。一般都得自己掏。你可以选ecm met ...

这个您说的对。

我想应该除了非常高级别的员工意外，FBT都是由雇员承担的。

simonwang

这里其实有两个概念： FBT taxable value　和　FBT Liability

后者是前者的计算结果，名义上是雇主缴纳的，但一般雇主都会转移给员工。如果支付FBT liability， 员工应该从税前收入支付。

前者是根据fringe benefit 的不同类别加以计算，post tax employee contribution是用来减少taxable value 而不是用来付税的。

（FBT　Taxable Value - Employee Contribution) *2.1463 *49% = FBT Liability

上面公式可以看出，如果不作出与taxable value等值的contribution， 就要缴税了。两种方法都很普遍，一般以年收入十八万为界限，以上则无需employee contribution，以下则用employee contribution为佳，因为十八万以下的个人所得税率低于FBT tax rate。

tiansen90904

simonwang 发表于 2016-6-29 12:04
这里其实有两个概念： FBT taxable value　和　FBT Liability

后者是前者的计算结果，名义上是雇主缴纳的 ...

这里其实有两个概念： FBT taxable value　和　FBT Liability

后者是前者的计算结果，名义上是雇主缴纳的，但一般雇主都会转移给员工。如果支付FBT liability， 员工应该从税前收入支付。
您的意思是如果有FBT liability，那么应该由员工从税前收入中缴纳。但一般情况下是不是都会选择FBT taxabe vaue同employee contribution对等减掉，从而不缴纳FBT liability。因为对于员工来讲，这是最经济的方式。



前者是根据fringe benefit 的不同类别加以计算，post tax employee contribution是用来减少taxable value 而不是用来付税的。

（FBT　Taxable Value - Employee Contribution) *2.1463 *49% = FBT Liability

我在发这个帖子的时候，原以为ECM直接缴纳的就是FBT liability。看了您的公式，意识到ECM在其中只是个步骤。那么我想问个问题，ECM的扣除是不是纯的税后工资扣除？这个税后工资扣除在工资单上是怎么样显示出来的？或者这样问，在做了novated lease之后，fortnightly的工资单上同没做NL之前作对比，是否只少了税前扣除的工资部分。而ECM（税后）这部分的扣除，在员工完全退税之后（员工到手税后工资确定之后），再通过某种方式补交这部分ECM的费用？

上面公式可以看出，如果不作出与taxable value等值的contribution， 就要缴税了。两种方法都很普遍，一般以年收入十八万为界限，以上则无需employee contribution，以下则用employee contribution为佳，因为十八万以下的个人所得税率低于FBT tax rate。

simonwang

tiansen90904 发表于 2016-6-30 10:22
这里其实有两个概念： FBT taxable value　和　FBT Liability

后者是前者的计算结果，名义上是雇主缴纳 ...

Employee contribution is deducted at the same time as the pre tax deduction.

Say the total operating costs for the car is $1,100 per month, the post tax contribution required is $500, then the pre tax deduction would be $600. Both in the same pay slip.

tiansen90904

simonwang 发表于 2016-6-30 12:08
Employee contribution is deducted at the same time as the pre tax deduction.

Say the total operat ...

就是说，假设在NL之前，我一个月税前工资是$5,000, PAYGwithhold $ 800，pay slip上剩余金额为$ 4,200。在NL之后，一个月operational cost是$ 1100 ( 包括lease payment)，我的pre-tax部分扣掉$ 600，post-tax部分扣掉$ 500，那么在我的pay slip上每月显示的剩余工资金额为 $ 5000 - $ 800 - $ 600 - $ 500 = $ 3100。是么？

simonwang

tiansen90904 发表于 2016-6-30 14:33
就是说，假设在NL之前，我一个月税前工资是$5,000, PAYGwithhold $ 800，pay slip上剩余金额为$ 4,200。 ...

$ 5000 - $ 800 - $ 600 - $ 500 = $ 3100

不全对，这里你的PAYG不再是$800，因为有税前扣款部分$600，你按照$4400 扣缴 PAYG。

tiansen90904

simonwang 发表于 2016-6-30 15:44
$ 5000 - $ 800 - $ 600 - $ 500 = $ 3100

不全对，这里你的PAYG不再是$800，因为有税前扣款部分$600， ...

哦是的。应该是$ 5,000 (原始月工资) - $ 600 ( NL 税前抵扣) - certain PAYG amount ( 之于$ 4,400) - $ 500。

还有个问题，NL的优势之一GST部分，我怎么从我的employer那claim回来？我看Maxxia给我的相关合同上，提到了ICT（Input Tax Credit)，但GST这部分金额如何算到我的总saving里面，我没大看懂。或者说ICT要额外计算么？

simonwang

tiansen90904 发表于 2016-6-30 17:27
哦是的。应该是$ 5,000 (原始月工资) - $ 600 ( NL 税前抵扣) - certain PAYG amount ( 之于$ 4,400) - $ ...

至于GST的返还，我之前没有提到，怕和其他数字混了。假设还是前面的那些数字，你雇主每个月可以退$1100/11=$100的GST，与此同时，$500/11是基于Post contribution的GST，say $45每个月。这样的话，两者抵消等于GST净返还$55，那你$600的税前扣款就可以减少到$545。这一块是你自己买车做不到的。虽然每个月新的Taxable income现在是$4455，所得税稍稍上涨，但GST返还不是你自己付的钱，给税务局抽成也无所谓了。

tiansen90904

simonwang 发表于 2016-6-30 18:14
至于GST的返还，我之前没有提到，怕和其他数字混了。假设还是前面的那些数字，你雇主每个月可以退$1100/1 ...

至于GST的返还，我之前没有提到，怕和其他数字混了。假设还是前面的那些数字，你雇主每个月可以退$1100/11=$100的GST，与此同时，$500/11是基于Post contribution的GST，say $45每个月。这样的话，两者抵消等于GST净返还$55，那你$600的税前扣款就可以减少到$545。这一块是你自己买车做不到的。虽然每个月新的Taxable income现在是$4455，所得税稍稍上涨，但GST返还不是你自己付的钱，给税务局抽成也无所谓了。

1. 为什么只返还pre-tax部分的GST呢？用ECM方式付的那部分金额中不也是gst inclusive的吗？

2. 在实际操作中，管理公司 or bank financier也是直接把GST节省的这部分钱数反应到每月的工资单上了是吗？

simonwang

tiansen90904 发表于 2016-7-1 00:26
至于GST的返还，我之前没有提到，怕和其他数字混了。假设还是前面的那些数字，你雇主每个月可以退$1100/1 ...

1， 你的post tax contribution，雇主需作为收入并交纳GST，所以这一块就不给员工了。
2， 具体方式要看各个公司，有的是定期还GST给员工，比如 Maxxia。有的是直接减少工资扣款额，这个比较普遍。

tiansen90904

simonwang 发表于 2016-7-1 09:06
1， 你的post tax contribution，雇主需作为收入并交纳GST，所以这一块就不给员工了。
2， 具体方式要看 ...

1， 你的post tax contribution，雇主需作为收入并交纳GST，所以这一块就不给员工了。

前辈，不是很明白“post tax这部分作为收入并需缴纳GST”的意思。

第一个问题，为了达到收益最大化（FBT taxable income和ECM需完全抵清），而FBT taxable income = vehicle value*20%。这其中vehicle value业已包括了GST。那我假设同FBT taxable income数额相同的ECM，本身也是GST inclusive的（有点牵强哈），那么雇主还需要为这部分的ECM缴纳额外的GST吗？

第二个问题，从公司税务的角度上说，一切雇主的收入都需要缴纳GST的吗？包括这里面的employ contribution。如果这其中又涉及到其他方面的税务知识（例如公司税务）的话，我想我就没啥必要刨根问底了。要不然问题就太多了。

2， 具体方式要看各个公司，有的是定期还GST给员工，比如 Maxxia。有的是直接减少工资扣款额，这个比较普遍。

这个我会定期monitor我的扣款。我在同Maxxia签合同之前，曾经咨询过公司的高级税务会计，感觉他们对novated lease及相关可能产生的税务问题也不甚明白。HR就更不用说了。如果想弄清楚这里面的细节，还得请教您这样的专业人士。

simonwang

tiansen90904 发表于 2016-7-1 10:41
1， 你的post tax contribution，雇主需作为收入并交纳GST，所以这一块就不给员工了。

前辈，不是很明白 ...

关于税后扣款，从法律上来讲它的定性是雇员针对收到的福利，支付给雇主或福利实际提供方，一起分担成本的做法。雇主可以把所有车辆的支出（也就是$1100）作为税务上的抵扣，除豪华车为特例。那么，雇主收到你的税后扣款就需要作为收入了，权责相当。至于按照GST SUPPLY来处理，是硬性规定了。

tiansen90904

simonwang 发表于 2016-7-1 11:32
关于税后扣款，从法律上来讲它的定性是雇员针对收到的福利，支付给雇主或福利实际提供方，一起分担成本的 ...

谢谢！

前几天我翻出来之前您关于novated lease的精华帖，我注意到还有一种租车形式是associate lease。

做associate lease的条件是：

Associate拥有这辆车；有ABN号；最好是收入水平不是很高。

想问您请教下：

如果我的associate符合上面的条件，那么同novated lease相比，associate lease还是比较划算的：因为associate lease不像novated lease一样涉及到贷款，有利息。即便涉及到贷款，但由于repayment是给associate的，所以基本也是回到我自己的口袋里。而且因为不涉及到我的雇主，所以不需要缴纳FBT liability。对么？

associate缴税是按公司税率缴纳还是个人收入税率缴纳？

Associate lease除了涉及到缴税的问题之外，还涉及到其他的一些支出吗？

还希望请您帮忙排异解惑一下。

simonwang

tiansen90904 发表于 2016-7-1 17:54
谢谢！

前几天我翻出来之前您关于novated lease的精华帖，我注意到还有一种租车形式是associate lease。 ...

Associate lease FBT一样计算的，只是你不用找银行了，你配偶或家人代替了银行地位。好处自然是少付利息了，但是坏处很明显，比如配偶需要做财务报表了。一般自己没有一定财务税法能力，还是很难的，很多雇主不了解也不支持，

tiansen90904

simonwang 发表于 2016-7-1 18:03
Associate lease FBT一样计算的，只是你不用找银行了，你配偶或家人代替了银行地位。好处自然是少付利息 ...

您是说，一旦我的associate有了ABN，那么像BAS，financial statement等公司报税相关的文件如果自己准备的话，那么就很麻烦是么？抛去文件准备方面特别麻烦的这方面问题之外，单纯从节省费用方面上讲，结果也是蛮可观的吧？例如，GST可以节省（pre-tax部分）；贷款利息可以节省下来；

但您既然提到了公司税务文件的问题，那么associate需要缴税的部分应该是缴纳30%公司税了是吗？

tiansen90904

simonwang 发表于 2016-7-1 18:03
Associate lease FBT一样计算的，只是你不用找银行了，你配偶或家人代替了银行地位。好处自然是少付利息 ...

您提到的“雇主一般不了解也不支持”的意思我没大明白：associate lease相当于我的associate和我之间的协议，同我的employer也有关系的么？我的employer在其中起着什么样的作用呢？

simonwang

tiansen90904 发表于 2016-7-1 18:38
您是说，一旦我的associate有了ABN，那么像BAS，financial statement等公司报税相关的文件如果自己准备的 ...

Associate 不一定是公司，不一定交公司所得税，大多情况下是包括到个人所得税。

Associate lease还是一个三方协议，所以要雇主批准的。名义上是雇主从你家人那里租的车子，然后提供给你。

tiansen90904

simonwang 发表于 2016-7-4 10:02
Associate 不一定是公司，不一定交公司所得税，大多情况下是包括到个人所得税。

Associate lease还是一 ...

那这样说的话，如果想approach 这个associate lease还是得首先获得雇主的支持的。

我准备把我的关于novalted lease的quotation 发出来。您希望我贴到论坛上还是通过例如email发给您呢？一些私人信息我会隐藏的。

非常感谢！

wyeann

想问下novated lease,如果全部都选的是pre tax contribution，那这部分是不是都能在计算ftb eligibility的时候deductible?

tiansen90904

wyeann 发表于 2016-11-4 05:45
想问下novated lease,如果全部都选的是pre tax contribution，那这部分是不是都能在计算ftb eligibility的 ...

你是说不选择ECM去付FBT的钱？

您说的情况我不大了解，因为我的novated lease就是直接说让我用税后的钱（ECM） 缴纳FBT的钱。而且这种方式应该是业内通用吧？也理应是最划算的缴费方式。

可口可乐

太复杂了 简单点 年收入18万以上 想买个9万的车 用这个计划合适吗 最后是不是就相当于一个无息贷款

tiansen90904

可口可乐 发表于 2016-11-4 07:03
太复杂了 简单点 年收入18万以上 想买个9万的车 用这个计划合适吗 最后是不是就相当于一个无息贷款 ...

您先偷偷告诉我您是哪个行业的，我参考参考之后我再把我知道的告诉您。