Reading Club 第一期：The Great Gatsby

coffeelover

JuJu 发表于 2013-4-10 09:32
reading club 放在网上挺好, 可以吸引更多的人参加, 定期讨论则可以保证把书在那个时间前看完, 有人一起 ...

我赞成呀，讨论什么都好的，H只有跟书相关。
比如作者生平，写作背景，情节和人物性格这些。
甚至看了电影的，讨论电影版和原作区别也是欢迎的。

笔记这个，可能跟我自己比较喜欢翻译有关，所以不自觉喜欢参考中译本，喜欢体味某些句子的翻译是否到位这些。
另外，这本书中的确有好多句子/词组的用法值得体味。

coffeelover

Rhapsody 发表于 2013-4-10 09:43
悄悄来围观。

欢迎参与阅读和讨论哟。

虞宅与美丽

开始读了。
好久没有这样大段读英文了，好慢啊。

coffeelover

虞宅与美丽 发表于 2013-4-10 11:16
开始读了。
好久没有这样大段读英文了，好慢啊。

我也是。
头几页很多句子蛮晦涩，感觉到后半章就好多了。
我快读完第一章了。
现在每天能读书的时间太少。家有两娃，晚上没时间，要等他们都睡了才能看书，火车上又不方便做笔记。

老猫晒太阳

这个那个，读小说从来没做过笔记。。。。
电影coming soon in cinema..我还以为楼主挑这本书的原因是因为电影呢。。。。

coffeelover

老猫晒太阳 发表于 2013-4-10 12:06
这个那个，读小说从来没做过笔记。。。。
电影coming soon in cinema..我还以为楼主挑这本书的原因是因为电 ...

笔记那个随意吧，重点是参加讨论哟。
我是一直很想读这本书，这算给自己一点动力坚持读下去吧。
这边电影院快放映了么，真好，到时候要去看。
大概什么时间上映呀？

twitter2010

哇，lz读的书挺经典的。嗨，我是个看几页就瞌睡的人，所以只读些通俗的啦。最近，在看the hypnotist by Lars Kepler. 易读又刺激紧张，不错。

coffeelover

twitter2010 发表于 2013-4-10 20:38
哇，lz读的书挺经典的。嗨，我是个看几页就瞌睡的人，所以只读些通俗的啦。最近，在看the hypnotist by ...

通俗的我也爱看。
大爱John Grisham, Sydney Shelton这两位作家的书。
你说的那本没看过，是悬疑类的么。

Jingstar

跟着楼主读书，楼主好样的！

JuJu

coffeelover 发表于 2013-4-8 13:19
第一章读完啦，我先把更新的笔记放上来。

感觉好多地方都可以有不同理解,头晕. 觉得能准确翻译这本书的人定是高手. LZ快发吧, 很有兴趣看看他们都是怎么翻的.

你的问题,看这段人家写的这段分析可能有帮助,Gatsby的 dishonesty, criminal energy等等一开始是代表了Nick所很不喜欢的那类富人, 但是他对他有了更多的了解后对他又有了不同的感觉.

Ambivalent feelings

As it is mentioned in various passages of the book, for example in the foreword (p. 8), Nick is impressed by Gatsby's "extraordinary gift for hope" and his courage. So he isn't able to tell him in the conversation at the end that Daisy won't come back to him because he doesn't want to destroy his hope.
On the other hand, Nick can't approve Gatsby's dishonesty and his criminal energy. Gatsby made a lot of his money in selling alcohol during the time of the prohibition. Furthermore he seems to lack of morals: When Myrtle is killed the only thing that matters for him is Daisy's reaction. In reference to this Nick thinks "I disliked him so much this time that I didn't find it necessary this time to tell him he was wrong." (p. 150)
Nevertheless he stays with Gatsby that evening and they have a very long and intimate conversation in which Gatsby tells Nick the whole story of Daisy from the beginning to the end. This is probably the strongest proof for Nick and Gatsby having a close friendship in the entire book, and it is also a good example for their ambivalent feelings for each other: Although Nick really disliked him for a short moment at the beginning, he finally tells him that "he is worth the whole damn bunch put together" (p. 160).

我感觉急需去坐在这里的中学去上英文课(这书是中学课本).

coffeelover

JuJu 发表于 2013-4-11 14:30
感觉好多地方都可以有不同理解,头晕. 觉得能准确翻译这本书的人定是高手. LZ快发吧, 很有兴趣看看他们都 ...

中学课本哦。真需要重返中学呀。
所以说Nick对Gasby 的感情是即爱又恨，极其复杂呀。估计等整本书看完对这几句话能更好理解吧。

这里有中文版的书的链接，你可以对比着看。
http://www.tianyabook.com/waiguo2005/f/feicijielade/lbqd/

中译本中有些翻译也值得商榷。
不过有些句子我觉得翻译的真精彩。译者的中文功底应是很好。好多句子意思我看得明白，就是不能组织成一句漂亮的中文。看完中译本里的翻译觉得经他这么一翻译，真是棒呀。

这些句子我晚一点整理了发上来。

JuJu

coffeelover 发表于 2013-4-11 15:07
中学课本哦。真需要重返中学呀。
所以说Nick对Gasby 的感情是即爱又恨，极其复杂呀。估计等整本书看完 ...

这里的中学英语也很难的了, 我是觉得假如能有闲坐在这里的中学教室,  听一个学贯五车才倾八斗的英语老师, 来细细讲解这文章比较幸福.

coffeelover

先放一半上来，明天再整理另一半。
有一些我觉得中译本处理得不好的，我放了我觉得更好的译法。
也欢迎大家指出中译本翻译得不完善的地方。

1. He didn’t say any more, but we’ve always been unusually communicative in a reserved way, and I understood that he meant a great deal more than that.
【中译本】他没再说别的。但是，我们父子之间话虽不多，却一向是非常通气的，因此我明白他的话大有弦外之音。
【Coffeelover】他没再说别的。但我们父子之间的交流向来是言简意赅，因此我知道他的言外之意甚深。

2. In consequence, I’m inclined to reserve all judgments, a habit that has opened up many curious natures to me and also made me the victim of not a few veteran bores.
curious natures: 有怪僻的人
veteran bores: 爱唠叨的惹人厌烦的人
这两个词组作者的用法是很灵活，翻译就不容易啦，中译本这样翻译还算达意，不过原作的精炼对称的两个词组，翻译就没体现出来啦。

3. Most of the confidences were unsought — frequently I have feigned sleep, preoccupation, or a hostile levity when I realized by some unmistakable sign that an intimate revelation was quivering on the horizon.
【中译本】绝大多数的隐私都不是我打听来的——每逢我根据某种明白无误的迹象看出又有一次倾诉衷情在地平线上喷薄欲出的时候，我往往假装睡觉，假装心不在焉，或者装出不怀好意的轻佻态度。
这一句翻译的蛮精彩了。文字对仗原文，意思精彩地表达了出来。就是“又有一次倾诉衷情在地平线上喷薄欲出的时候”放在中文里读起来还是有点怪，但原著确是这样比喻的。不知道有没有更好的表达方式。

4 ….a sense of the fundamental decencies is parcelled out unequally at birth.
【中译本】基本的道德观念是在人出世的时候就分配不均的。
这一句作者的英文表达很精彩有没有。


5. When I came back from the East last autumn I felt that I wanted the world to be in uniform and at a sort of moral attention forever; I wanted no more riotous excursions with privileged glimpses into the human heart.
【中译本】去年秋天我从东部回来的时候，我觉得我希望全世界的人都穿上军装，并且永远在道德上保持一种立正姿势。我不再要参与放浪形骸的游乐，也不再要偶尔窥见人内心深处的荣幸了。
前半句翻译得很棒。
“我不再要参与放浪形骸的游乐”这一句的翻译我觉得跟上下文不搭。
【Coffeelover】我不希望再有这种荣幸，去参与这种窥探人内心世界的放纵的尝试。

excursion into something
If you describe an activity as an excursion into something, you mean that it is an attempt to develop or understand something new that you have not experienced before. [柯林斯高阶英汉词典]

6. This responsiveness had nothing to do with that flabby impressionability which is dignified under the name of the “creative temperament.”— it was an extraordinary gift for hope, a romantic readiness such as I have never found in any other person and which it is not likely I shall ever find again. No — Gatsby turned out all right at the end; it is what preyed on Gatsby, what foul dust floated in the wake of his dreams that temporarily closed out my interest in the abortive sorrows and short-winded elations of men.

【中译本】这种敏感和通常美其名曰“创造性气质”的那种软绵绵的感受性毫不相干——它是一种异乎寻常的永葆希望的天赋，一种富于浪漫色彩的敏捷，这是我在别人身上从来发现过的，也是我今后不大可能会再发现的。不——盖茨比本人到头来倒是无可厚非的、使我对人们短暂的悲哀和片刻的欢欣暂时丧失兴趣的，却是那些吞噬盖茨比心灵的东西，是在他的幻梦消逝后跟踪而来的恶浊的灰尘。
这一段我读起来觉得蛮难懂的，中译本翻译整体很棒。特别是这几个词组的处理：
an extraordinary gift for hope一种异乎寻常的永葆希望的天赋
a romantic readiness一种富于浪漫色彩的敏捷
abortive sorrows and short-winded elations 短暂的悲哀和片刻的欢欣
what foul dust floated in the wake of his dreams，是在他的幻梦破灭后随之而来的恶浊的灰尘

in the wake of
[4].PREP-PHRASE随着…而来；作为…的结果If one thing follows in the wake of another, it happens after the other thing is over, often as a result of it.

7. He had casually conferred on me the freedom of the neighborhood.
他无意之中授予了我这一带地方的荣誉市民的称号。

Freedom: 4.N（某市的）荣誉市民称号
The freedom of a particular city, is a special honour which is given to a famous person who is connected with that city, or to someone who has performed some special service for the city.
[柯林斯高阶英汉词典]

8. a national figure in a way, one of those men who reach such an acute limited excellence at twenty-one that everything afterward savors of anti-climax.
【中译本】也可说是个全国闻名的人物，这种人二十一岁就在有限范围内取得登峰造极的成就，从此以后一切都不免有走下坡路的味道了。

9. The lawn started at the beach and ran toward the front door for a quarter of a mile, jumping over sun-dials and brick walks and burning gardens — finally when it reached the house drifting up the side in bright vines as though from the momentum of its run.
【中译本】草坪从海滩起步，直奔大门，足足有四分之一英甲，一路跨过日文、砖径和火红的花园——最后跑到房子跟前，仿佛借助
于奔跑的势头，爽性变成绿油油的常春藤，沿着墙往上爬。
这一句的翻译非常棒，准确有贴切地表达了原著的意思。很赞呀。

10. Her grey sun-strained eyes looked back at me with polite reciprocal curiosity out of a wan, charming discontented face.
【中译本】她那双被太阳照得眯缝着的灰眼睛也看着我，一张苍白、可爱、不满的脸上流露出有礼貌的、回敬的好奇心。我这才想起我以前在什么地方见过她，或者她的照片。
sun-strained eyes 这个词组处理得不错
“一张苍白、可爱、不满的脸上流露出有礼貌的、回敬的好奇心。”这一句翻译的倒是跟原文逐字对应，就是放在中文里读起来怪怪的。

JuJu

觉得作者有时有钱钟书那种的刻薄, 写Daisy的LG

One of those men who reach such an acute limited excellence at twenty-one that everything afterward savors of anti-climax, 可见少年得志并非好事

讽刺"well-rounded" ....and now I was going to bring back all such things into my life and become again that most limited of all specialists, the “well-rounded man.”  

twitter2010

coffeelover 发表于 2013-4-10 22:08
通俗的我也爱看。
大爱John Grisham, Sydney Shelton这两位作家的书。
你说的那本没看过，是悬疑类的么。 ...

It is a thriller. 是关于警察去追查一个灭门案。故事发生在斯德哥尔摩。我觉的还挺吸引的。

JuJu

coffeelover 发表于 2013-4-11 16:48
先放一半上来，明天再整理另一半。
有一些我觉得中译本处理得不好的，我放了我觉得更好的译法。
也欢迎大家 ...

看完第二章会对" what foul dust floated in the wake of his dreams，是在他的幻梦破灭后随之而来的恶浊的灰尘" 会有不同体会, 第二章里对dust 有大量描写, 我觉得好象很有深意在里面, It is a "valley of ashes," a place of uninterrupted desolation, Myrtle 的LG, 最后杀死Gatsby 的人,  简直好象 dust 做成似的, "ashen dust" coats his clothes and his hair....   感觉不是巧合.


看完第二章, 一开始不明白为什么Daisy的LG会喜欢他那个情人不喜欢Daisy, 显然那情人并不美丽,好象还挺粗俗,再细细看来,敢情一个是白玫瑰,一个是红玫瑰啊

Daisy象是白玫瑰, 穿着纯白, 喜欢装娇弱, 吐气如兰状.  Myrtle象红玫瑰, 身穿颜色饱和的色彩,嘴唇鲜红, 肉感而生机勃勃, fleshy breasts and large hips.

现在开始看出些好来了, 我估计要反复看好几遍才对某些东西理解得能好些.

coffeelover

JuJu 发表于 2013-4-11 21:17
看完第二章会对" what foul dust floated in the wake of his dreams，是在他的幻梦破灭后随之而来的恶浊 ...

我觉得你那个红白玫瑰的比喻很经典，回头一想真是这样。

那个valley of ashes, 中译本说是 灰之谷，我觉得好像不对。灰是 不可数名词嘛，怎么会用复数。
我查了字典，ash 还有 白蜡树 的意思。

3.N-VAR白蜡树；An ash is a tree that has smooth grey bark and loses its leaves in winter.

...a high forest of oak and ash.生长着橡树和白蜡树的高山林。

所以文章还有 ” a fantastic farm where ashes grow like wheat into ridges and hills .."
树才会长嘛，灰怎么grow 呢。

这里应该取这个意思么，你觉得呢。

至于dust 的深意，估计还要再往后读，会有更深的理解。

coffeelover

我把第二章又读了一遍。
Tom 对Myrtle 应该只是 肉欲吧。他骗Myrtle说Daisy 是天主教徒，所以不能离婚。跟现今的出轨的男人如出一辙，并不打算离婚，只是享受快乐。甚至他都不允许Myrtle提Daisy 的名字，还因此打了Myrtle.
这样看Daisy 在他心中地位应该很高呀。

Myrtle 也蛮可怜，稀里糊涂嫁给了George, 以为他是有钱人，结果George 连结婚的衣服都是借的。她跟George 在车行破旧的顶楼住了十一年。她渴望物质上的享受，没有在丈夫身上得到，所以后面跟Tom一拍即合。

JuJu

coffeelover 发表于 2013-4-11 22:45
我把第二章又读了一遍。
Tom 对Myrtle 应该只是 肉欲吧。他骗Myrtle说Daisy 是天主教徒，所以不能离婚。跟 ...

Tom 绝对是个asshole, 待自己的女人一个也不好

说Daisy 是天主教徒, 倒也可能是Myrtle自己编的

JuJu

coffeelover 发表于 2013-4-11 22:16
我觉得你那个红白玫瑰的比喻很经典，回头一想真是这样。

那个valley of ashes, 中译本说是 灰之谷，我觉 ...

ash 可以复数的, 翻成灰之谷我觉得翻译得没错.  ash 和 dust, "恶俗的灰尘" 可能在作者的深意中代表了一种他心中所认为的末日, 腐朽和丑恶,  不知道我是否过分解读了, 继续下看去可能会明白多一些

coffeelover

第二章很喜欢这段话。

Yet high over the city our line of yellow windows must have contributed their share of human secrecy to the casual watcher in the darkening streets, and I was him too, looking up and wondering. I was within and without, simultaneously enchanted and repelled by the inexhaustible variety of life.

这一句很有卞之琳的”你在桥上看风景，看风景的人在桥上看你”的意味。
人生何尝不是这样。

后面一句跟前面一句”I wanted to get out and walk eastward toward the park through the soft twilight, but each time I tried to go I became entangled in some wild, strident argument which pulled me back, as if with ropes, into my chair. " 对应。
Nick对这繁华的都市感到厌烦，想要挣脱，却被困其中。一直到gatsby 死后才让他下决心离开。

JuJu

coffeelover 发表于 2013-4-11 22:16
我觉得你那个红白玫瑰的比喻很经典，回头一想真是这样。

那个valley of ashes, 中译本说是 灰之谷，我觉 ...

嘿, 找到证据了

Symbols

Green Light
Situated at the end of Daisy’s East Egg dock and barely visible from Gatsby’s West Egg lawn, the green light represents Gatsby’s hopes and dreams for the future. Gatsby associates it with Daisy, and in Chapter 1 he reaches toward it in the darkness as a guiding light to lead him to his goal. Because Gatsby’s quest for Daisy is broadly associated with the American dream, the green light also symbolizes that more generalized ideal. In Chapter 9, Nick compares the green light to how America, rising out of the ocean, must have looked to early settlers of the new nation.

The Valley of Ashes
First introduced in Chapter 2, the valley of ashes between West Egg and New York City consists of a long stretch of desolate land created by the dumping of industrial ashes. It represents the moral and social decay that results from the uninhibited pursuit of by wealth, as the rich indulge themselves with regard for nothing but their own pleasure. The valley of ashes also symbolizes the plight of the poor, like George Wilson, who live among the dirty ashes and lose their vitality as a result.

The Eyes of Doctor T. J. Eckleburg
The eyes of Doctor T. J. Eckleburg are a pair of fading, bespectacled eyes painted on an old advertising billboard over the valley of ashes. They may represent God staring down upon and judging American society as a moral wasteland, though the novel never makes this point explicitly. Instead, throughout the novel, Fitzgerald suggests that symbols only have meaning because characters instill them with meaning. The connection between the eyes of Doctor T. J. Eckleburg and God exists only in George Wilson’s grief-stricken mind. This lack of concrete significance contributes to the unsettling nature ofthe image. Thus, the eyes also come to represent the essential meaninglessness of the world and the arbitrariness of the mental process by which people invest objects with meaning. Nick explores these ideas in Chapter 8, when he imagines Gatsby’s final thoughts as a depressed consideration of the emptiness of symbols and dreams.

JuJu

coffeelover 发表于 2013-4-11 23:18
第二章很喜欢这段话。

Yet high over the city our line of yellow windows must have contributed their  ...

是很好, 细细看, 很多句子都很好, 所以是经典

coffeelover

那个ash 的理解，我看了一篇分析文章，应该取 ruins 这个意思。这个废墟之谷是堆放大都市垃圾而成 是资本主义的副产物。也象征大都市繁华欣荣的外表下所掩盖的肮脏和罪恶。

Unlike the other settings in the book, the valley of ashes is a picture of absolute desolation and poverty. It lacks a glamorous surface and lies fallow and gray halfway between West Egg and New York. The valley of ashes symbolizes the moral decay hidden by the beautiful facades of the Eggs, and suggests that beneath the ornamentation of West Egg and the mannered charm of East Egg lies the same ugliness as in the valley. The valley is created by industrial dumping and is therefore a by-product of capitalism. It is the home to the only poor characters in the novel.

coffeelover

JuJu 发表于 2013-4-11 22:54
ash 可以复数的, 翻成灰之谷我觉得翻译得没错.  ash 和 dust, "恶俗的灰尘" 可能在作者的深意中代表了一 ...

哈哈，你也在线呢。
你说的这个有道理。但应该不是灰烬这个意思。做灰烬解，的确是不可数。
应该做ruin解。

ash 1  (sh)n.
1. The grayish-white to black powdery residue left when something is burned.
2. Geology Pulverized particulate matter ejected by volcanic eruption.
3. The mineral residue of incinerated organic matter, used as an additive in pet foods.
4. ashes Ruins: the ashes of a lost culture.
5. ashes Bodily remains, especially after cremation or decay.

我上面也找到一篇文章。

这本书越读越有味道呀。而且有人一起讨论很有意思。

coffeelover

JuJu 发表于 2013-4-11 23:20
嘿, 找到证据了

Symbols

这个跟我看到的那篇文章的说法差不多。
应该就是这个意思了。

JuJu

coffeelover 发表于 2013-4-11 23:36
哈哈，你也在线呢。
你说的这个有道理。但应该不是灰烬这个意思。做灰烬解，的确是不可数。
应该做ruin解 ...

很赞同, 这下可以睡觉去了:)

coffeelover

JuJu 发表于 2013-4-11 23:56
很赞同, 这下可以睡觉去了:)

今天读第三章啦。

dootbear

我回悉尼给楼主加分， 楼主这样做真好！

JuJu

coffeelover 发表于 2013-4-12 08:45
今天读第三章啦。

今天是偶家movie night, 偶不来了, 昨晚已经一口气看到第六章了, 但是还有不少地方不很明白, 等仔细再看过一遍再来讨论.