无语了...Luck? Connection?

丹儿

原帖由 bulaohu 于 2008-7-7 17:19 发表
I'd say that there is no absolute fairness. However, 路遥知马力，日久见人心。

是的，人际关系人际关系，只要有人，就有关系。不管在任何地方，都是这样。
碰到了，就感慨一下，没有问题。大家都见得多了，不奇怪。所以说肯定没有绝对的公平。公司老板完全有权利根据个人的好恶来挑选人。更何况一个人在不同的人眼睛里，在不同角度上来评价，结果都会不同。
但是，归根结底，没有一个人一辈子都幸运，时间可以考验一切，所以说路遥知马力，日久见人心是很确切的。还是相信那句话，是金子总会发光的。别感叹了，多点时间把自己擦亮一些更实在。:)

rogerk

哈哈，之所以称之为洋人，那是因为没来这里以前，工作的公司里接近一半外国人，大家同事统称他们为"洋人”，以和“国人“加以区别，所以叫习惯了。其实在这里，我们才是“洋人“。不过不知道怎么就能从这个称呼上联系到“底气“？这个逻辑好像我想不太通。。。

steveking

比如大家都狠喜欢 RUGBY OR 一起打高尔夫什么的。。。万事皆有可能

原帖由 xingbu 于 2008-7-7 13:23 发表
每个人都有闪光点阿， 你朋友的儿子可能有着你们发现不了的闪光点正好被他的老板看中了？
当然， 处于任何一个位置的人看人的角度都不一样， 有你看到， 也有你看不到， 正好他的老板看到了他身上你看不到的一面，  ...

rogerk

The flaw in what your said is who on earth should decide the requirements of a "qualified candidate". It is not your call because you are not the boss or hiring manager. The boss hired that boy because he thought the boy worth the money and more important, the boss believe that the boy could help him gain more money than he would pay. I just want to make a reminder that we should not over-look ourselves just because we have so-called "skills" or "knowledge". The criteria is set by the boss (or the market I should say) instead of us. We have to meet all the basic requirements of being an educated person in this Western culture society, the most important in which is the language ability.

All in all, since we are not as good as a native speaker on the language, we'd better face the fact and try to improve it. I do not understand how keep challenging their hiring criteria could help on this matter at all.

click

原帖由 rogerk 于 2008-7-7 15:30 发表
为什么大家都要把这些认为是歧视呢？我们确实说不好英文，说不到洋人那么溜。我们确实是自觉自愿跑到人家国家来混人家的福利，人家凭什么没有理由按人家自己的标准招工呢？ 我们要是能把英文说得跟洋人一样，人家不要 ...

我不认为我们是来混人家的福利，我们是来为这里的社会发展作贡献的。这里的大多数人都是交的税要比享受的福利多很多。
另外，在偏技术的行业中，技术和经验明显要比语言重要的多。如果某个公司选择没什么经验的本地人而放弃经验丰富的移民，我认为除了歧视没什么别的解释。

lsyca

所谓经验丰富的移民，也要表达一下自己如何的经验丰富不是？

即使在技术行业，语言也是第一位的。这就是为什么在美国的科技公司里面，印度人更容易混到中层而不是中国人。

认识到自己的不足，才能前进。偾事疾俗，那不能改变什么。

[ 本帖最后由 lsyca 于 2008-7-7 18:11 编辑 ]

TheWayIam

原帖由 rogerk 于 2008-7-7 17:49 发表
The flaw in what your said is who on earth should decide the requirements of a "qualified candidate". It is not your call because you are not the boss or hiring manager. The boss hired that boy becaus ...

as what u said, the market should set the requirements rather the boss. but the reality? i m afraid not!

the boss may be right or wrong. no one knows. what i feel uneased is that there's not guidance about abilities vs "face value"

plus, i dont think what you said about "our language" abilities could stand true. it may be the case for some people but may be not for others. in my humble two cents, yes, you need to speak the language to make people understand you however the working culture in a lot of companies makes it impossible for people who are naturally disadvantaged to get a fair go - people simply take up on the "face value" rather than the "intrinsic value"!

that's one of the most disturbing things one can possibly imagine of. again, i m just talking about something in general, not specifically apply it to the boy's case.

[ 本帖最后由 TheWayIam 于 2008-7-7 18:12 编辑 ]

rogerk

"来为这里的社会发展作贡献", 这个话太冠冕堂皇了吧？国内说说还可以，跑到这里还这么讲，似乎不太合适。我们每个人来这里，一定有自己的目的，自己想要的东西。非要说我不是图这里什么，是来为这里社会作贡献的，那为何不回去为了我们的共产主义多做点贡献呢？

至于某个公司选择什么人，那是人家的自由。人家有人家的条件，但是有一点是，这里是赤裸裸金钱关系的资本主义社会。老板跟钱是没有仇的。如果老板不选你，而选了别人，那说明他认为别人比你更能为他带来利益。至于究竟技术经验重要或是语言重要，我们不是老板，这个不是我们能决定的。

但是只要有一点，如果你话也说不利索，找到工作比较难那是肯定的。犯不着看着人家本地人虽然没经验也能找到工作心里就不平衡，人家至少话能说利索，这点，我们就比不上。

所以，再次重申我的观点，我们到别人地盘上来混，话也说不利索，吃点苦那是必然的。只有真正认识到自己的不足，努力提高，那才是王道，整天吵吵说人家歧视你，那个叫“掩耳盗铃“。

click

原帖由 lsyca 于 2008-7-7 18:09 发表
即使在技术行业，语言也是第一位的。这就是为什么在美国的科技公司里面，印度人更容易混到中层而不是中国人。

这应该是文化的原因，而不是语言。

degra

connection = luck

click

原帖由 rogerk 于 2008-7-7 18:13 发表
"来为这里的社会发展作贡献", 这个话太冠冕堂皇了吧？国内说说还可以，跑到这里还这么讲，似乎不太合适。我们每个人来这里，一定有自己的目的，自己想要的东西。非要说我不是图这里什么，是来为这里社会作贡献的，那 ...

如果你是铁了心要来混福利的，那是你的自由。但是大多数中国人不是这样，这也是为什么说中国人勤劳的原因。不管来这里的原因和目的是什么，你工作，你交税，你就是为社会进步作了贡献。我不认为怎么冠冕堂皇。
[quote]至于某个公司选择什么人，那是人家的自由。人家有人家的条件，但是有一点是，这里是赤裸裸金钱关系的资本主义社会。老板跟钱是没有仇的。如果老板不选你，而选了别人，那说明他认为别人比你更能为他带来利益。至于究竟技术经验重要或是语言重要，我们不是老板，这个不是我们能决定的。[quote]
没错，这是他的自由，但不代表没有歧视。老板跟女工签订有条件的合同是老板的自由。在中国，警察看你不顺眼把你带回去教训一顿也是他的自由。我们无法决定很多事情，但是我们可以认为什么是对什么是错。

rogerk

How the boss make his decision, we do not know. Is there a factor called "face value" as you mentioned, I do not know. You also agree with me that you have to use language to make others understand you, understand what you could do and prove to others that you are good. That proves the importance of mastering the language if you want a good future in your job. If someone fails in an interview for lacking of that, it is fair enough.

moreover, I noticed that you attribute the "unfair" to the "working culture" of "a lot of company" this time. You said "people simply take up on the "face value" rather than the "intrinsic value"". I am just wondering how you know others judge by "face value" instead of  the so-called "intrinsic value"? If you cannot express yourself very well, how others could know your so-called "intrinsic value"? People always know others from their talk and behavior. If we are lacking of experience on both of proficient language and following proper local behaviors, should we just expect the others forgive us since we are the foreigners? It is indeed who are trying to split us from the local people? it is ourselves!

rogerk

是，这次我同意你。你也知道老板挑什么员工是老板的自由，当然，你也有认为你被歧视了的自由，这个我不能干涉。

至于移民是不是要把这些找不到工作的事情归结于歧视，那么各人有各人的自由。但是有一点大家其实都明白，我们的英语水平也就是人家一个高中生的程度，在文化背景上更是基本上白纸一张。我们去找工作，和老板谈半天，老板觉得跟你谈不如跟那个白人初中小子谈得来，结果要了人家没要我们， 我们回来就大呼说我们被歧视了，当然可以起到阿Q的作用，可是改变不了老板的想法。

我们只能，要么自己做老板，我也不着白人小子，我歧视你们不会说中文；或者，好好把英文学好点，多懂点人家的东西，争取下次能跟老板谈得投机点。。。

hunthouse

矛盾是无处不在的

lsyca

靠，我来这里是为了实现共产主义的。这是不是对全人类最大的贡献？

click

原帖由 rogerk 于 2008-7-7 18:38 发表
是，这次我同意你。你也知道老板挑什么员工是老板的自由，当然，你也有认为你被歧视了的自由，这个我不能干涉。

至于移民是不是要把这些找不到工作的事情归结于歧视，那么各人有各人的自由。但是有一点大家其实都明白，我们的英语水平也就是人家一个高中生的程度，在文化背景上更是基本上白纸一张。我们去找工作，和老板谈半天，老板觉得跟你谈不如跟那个白人初中小子谈得来，结果要了人家没要我们，我们回来就大呼说我们被歧视了，当然可以起到阿Q的作用，可是改变不了老板的想法。

我们只能，要么自己做老板，我也不着白人小子，我歧视你们不会说中文；或者，好好把英文学好点，多懂点人家的东西，争取下次能跟老板谈得投机点。。。

移花接木之计！
楼主的情况显然不是你描述的这样。
我认为歧视是指由于工作以外的原因选择比较不合适的候选人而放弃比较合适的候选人。
比如楼主描述的情况，又比如老板选择一个没经验的美女做秘书而放弃有经验的人。这些都是歧视。

click

原帖由 lsyca 于 2008-7-7 18:48 发表
靠，我来这里是为了实现共产主义的。这是不是对全人类最大的贡献？

你选择，你喜欢。

rogerk

我认为我这篇所回是你在35#的言论，而非楼主的case. 其实，对于楼主得case也并非完全不合适。因为我们作为移民，其实先天的和本地人就不再一条起跑线上。如你所说，“歧视”是指其他条件都一样的情况下，选他不选你那叫歧视，我不知道在这个坛子里有多少同学敢拍胸脯说“我的英文和文化背景知识跟本地洋人比一点不差”。既然我们确实语言上差人家一截，那就勤能补拙，好好补。而不是自以为是的自己给自己安慰说，“我们有技术，他们没有，所以我们语言差一点他们也能接受”。当然你有这么想或者这么安慰自己的权利，但是这个找工作的时候不起实际作用。还是现实点吧。把事情都推到“歧视”这个借口上是没什么帮助的，还是多在自己身上下点功夫，看看自己缺什么，就补点什么吧。。。

[ 本帖最后由 rogerk 于 2008-7-7 19:50 编辑 ]

click

原帖由 rogerk 于 2008-7-7 18:53 发表
我认为我这篇所回是你在35#的言论，而非楼主的case. 其实，对于楼主得case也并非完全不合适。因为我们作为移民，其实先天的和本地人就不再一条起跑线上。如你所说，“歧视”是指其他条件都一样的情况下，选他不选你那 ...

我所有楼的观点都很清楚：
1，楼主说的情况就是歧视。
2，不论是在这里还是国内，我们努力工作，为社会创造价值，我们依法缴税，我们应该得到公平对待。
3，那种认为自己是跑到“洋人”的国家混福利的想法是没底气的行为。

lisacai

时间和市场会检验一个人的价值的。当然我们的英文要过基本关才有可能跟他们站在同样的起跑线上，就即使是站上了同样的起跑线，作为新移民，母语不是英文的我们要付出比本地人都多的艰辛才可以，我们每天都是这样努力着的，不进则退！

非常同意这句话

lisacai

一般真真有本事的人不会成天喊着自己被歧视了，据我所知本论坛就有好几个牛人，怎么就不见他们说自己被歧视了？

careycat

这个是移民遇到的普遍问题吧，一定程度上语言问题还是可以解决的，文化背景的问题就很难，就业机会就决定在hiring manager的手里，看对眼了就好办，看不对眼了就byebye。歧视也好，自身问题也好，我想大家都只能接受，几乎没有什么讨价还价的余地。反而LZ和各位在此讨论的人以后作为hiring manager的时候多给一些机会给移民才是，多发掘移民身上的闪光点，当这种观念普遍了，移民的日子就好过了。

TheWayIam

原帖由 rogerk 于 2008-7-7 18:31 发表
How the boss make his decision, we do not know. Is there a factor called "face value" as you mentioned, I do not know. You also agree with me that you have to use language to make others understand yo ...

ok, it's very obvious you hv absolutely NO idea about the fundamental difference between "equality" and "equal opportunity".

language is one factor when employers judge a candidate's abilities but it should not be all and it should not be THE most important one if you are not doing a job which requires certain level of communications skills, such as client service or sales jobs. i can say it's fair and square that a lot of people are disadvantaged because of the language issue! well, Australia is a multicultural country. so people should embrace the differences, not asking for the same thing! tell me a very good reason why a Chinese migrant must have the same level of English language competency as a person who's from an Anglo-Saxon family? put it the other way around, would you ask for the same? if you do, well, i m sorry to say, you think you are treating everyone fairly and equally but in fact you are creating discrimination! by asking for what you have asked for, it's no different from saying "in a family, a ten years old must share the same burden as the parents and making the same amount of income to support this family"!

why do people take "face value"? coz taking on face value is a very easy thing to do. i stand by what i said - in a lot of companies, especially those big corporations, people hook up with each other for so called "values". if you hv been in the game long enough, you should know what i mean. those implied things are far more important, in most cases.

whether you agree with what i said, it's up to you. i hv no intention to debate it further with you - as simple as that.

btw, please stop using the word "you" if YOU want to generalize the scenario, that may offend people unintentionally.

PS: you had a question of " 在这个坛子里有多少同学敢拍胸脯说“我的英文和文化背景知识跟本地洋人比一点不差” " - i think there are a few on this forum and i dont think they will say a very high level of language competency is a necessity when it comes to a great job or great opportunity - a fund manager in HK may speak Hongkilish but all those people around the world listen to him LIVE on Bloomberg!

[ 本帖最后由 TheWayIam 于 2008-7-7 21:18 编辑 ]

无产阶级

非常支持ThewayIam的观点。因为所谓的平等机会法案就是指雇主并不能以自己的意愿而凭借肤色，性别，口音，身体健康等等理由。而这些就是歧视。
就像语言，有些好像认为我们语言不如老外，文化不同，但记住澳洲是多元文化的国家，而我们的语言是不是毫不影响工作。
其实就语言而言，我们的工作语言其实比不亚于老外。尤其在商业写作上。对于没有经过训练的老外。他的商业信函的能力并不是很好的。
同理如果我们要求在中国工作的老外能用中国各地的方言，能融入中国各地的文化，否则不给工作，你觉得合理吗？

rogerk

原帖由 click 于 2008-7-7 20:03 发表

我所有楼的观点都很清楚：
1，楼主说的情况就是歧视。
2，不论是在这里还是国内，我们努力工作，为社会创造价值，我们依法缴税，我们应该得到公平对待。
3，那种认为自己是跑到“洋人”的国家混福利的想法是没底 ...

恩。貌似这位TX已经没有论据只有论点了，开始盖棺定论了，那么我也总结几句。

对于你认为这种情况是歧视还是不是，你有你的看法，我有我的。我只知道如果因为语言或者文化问题不熟悉以至于吃了亏，那只能怪自己。

至于公平对待，我没意见。如果别人不照顾我们是移民，所以就对我们语言要求放低一点，那么这个就是歧视，这个观点真是不错，希望能这位同学能让这种观点早点普及，至于洋人是不是觉得这个不公平，那我们就管不着了。

至于是不是跑来混福利的，还是来建设共产主义的，这个是个人追求，跟有底气没底气扯不上，而且老实说，我还真不知道你说的底气是什么意思。

就此打住吧。既然已经不打算摆事实，讲道理了，再说下去徒伤了和气。

rogerk

原帖由 TheWayIam 于 2008-7-7 21:05 发表


ok, it's very obvious you hv absolutely NO idea about the fundamental difference between "equality" and "equal opportunity".

language is one factor when employers judge a candidate's abilities ...

First of all, I truly apologize for anything I said which made you feel offensive. My English is not as good as yours, please forgive me if I use any improper wording in my post.

However, I really get confused about your opinion on the "equality" and "equal opportunity" after reading your last post. You are asking me about "tell me a very good reason why a Chinese migrant must have the same level of English language competency as a person who's from an Anglo-Saxon family", and also states that if I say yes, I am creating "discrimination"...

I am quite scared about if I am really creating discrimination, I study what it is from the website of "Victoria Equal Opportunity & Human Right Commission".
(http://www.humanrightscommission ... ination/default.asp) It listed out 17 types of discrimation. Unfortunately, neither of them gives me a clue about that as a non-English native speaker, we should be treated with lower language competency, or it would be the discrimination.

I used to think you are advocating the "fair play", "equality", and "equal opportunity", but in your last post, it seems not. What I could read now is that you are asking the employer to treat different people differently. For the Chinese migrant, a lower bar on language requirements must be set by the employer, since they are not native-english speakers, or it means there is discriminatation? It is more confused with the example you made, in a family, the 10 years old kid does not have to take the same responsibilities as their parents take, but the kid does not have the same right either. If you think it would be right for employer to treat the non-native speaker with different language requirements, would you imply that the employer should pay less reward to them?

What I would say is that if we really want a "fair play", we should at least try to play the game in the same rule as the aussie. We cannot expected the employer lower the bar for us just because we are migrate, that acturally is unpractical and unfair. Certainly, I am not saying there is no discrimination at all, otherwise, there would not have that Act in place. However, we, ourselves,  as the migrates, should try to compete with local people under the same rule. Yes, it would be harder for us, but it would be much harmful if we attribute our own failure on learning local language and local customs to so-called "discrinimation". It wouldn't help us at all. The important fact we'd better keep in mind is that it is the employer, not us to decide if our language ability is enough for doing the job. I am not saying a very high level of language competency is necessary for getting a job, but it is absolutely wrong to misguide the people to blame the 'discrimination' instead of thinking about what they really need to improve.

As for the "face value" you mentioned, I do not understand it exactly, but I could guess a little bit about it. It might be the "glass ceiling" people usually mentioned. I believe that's because a sort of culture gap which prevent migrate from blending in the local people and creating their network afterwards. In fact, seldom migrates could blend in well indeed. Despite the culture difference, not fully mastering the language is also an important reason. It actally is an exact example on how important of mastering the language and culture is for a career success. Of course, you could attribute it to "discrimination" again, but you could only have right say so if you could talk and behavior exactly like a local. It is not about the technical skills or knowledge, it is just about how accurate people could be when expressing the idea in a proper way, since it is dealing with people, not machines. Again, language takes the most important role.

All in all, I strongly disagree with the attitude which always attributing the failure to the 'discrimination', it is just "掩耳盗铃". Since we are here as migrates, what we have to do is working very hard on getting adapted with their rules and play the game with them fairly. We have disadvantages on languge for certain, but we could try our best to improve it. The employer might lower expectation on our language abilities, but that is not what we could take for granted. Knowing the language and knowing the culture is the verry first step and the most important step we should do in order to really play a fair game in this society and get respect from locals. Please carefully think about who on earth try to seperate us from the others, it is not the society, not employer, they are ourselves. We think we are migrates, so we want to be treated differently. It is absolutely wrong. We are not guests here, we are part of them now.

Finally, I would say, it is not a bad thing on debating those topics. the debating could give more different views for the audience and there might be some new ideas coming out.

[ 本帖最后由 rogerk 于 2008-7-8 00:08 编辑 ]

rogerk

感谢朱版加分鼓励，朱版理解我没有功劳也有苦劳，没有苦劳还有疲劳阿。。。

飞天小猪

楼上的几位高人讨论的好热闹。

站在职场菜鸟的角度，我觉得任何国家都存在不公平。中国的雇佣市场有中国特色的歧视，比如女生不准结婚或生孩子之类；同样澳洲市场有澳洲市场的歧视：语言，文化，肤色。作为被雇佣者，我们痛恨这样的不公平，但大多数时候决定在雇佣者。所以，对于那些曾经歧视过我，或者以后有可能歧视我的雇主，我只有一句话：If you are not satisfied with me, either am I. 此处不留人，自有留人处。

其次，对于语言和能力哪个更重要的问题，我也有一点体会。我觉得相比一口“流利的英语”，“交流能力”更为重要。我相信论坛里的很多做到Senior或以上职位的前辈，未必都说得Native speaker一样流利，但他们一定知道如何 清晰条理地表达自己的观点以及如何耐心听取别人的意见。听，和说一样重要。Listen carefully and speak clearly。 所以我想，作为非英语母语的移民一族，如果我们能注重锻炼有效交流的能力，而不仅仅纠结在如何讲一口发音超级纯正的地道英语上，为已经出色的技术水平锦上添花，不是更好吗？

TheWayIam

原帖由 rogerk 于 2008-7-7 23:08 发表


First of all, I truly apologize for anything I said which made you feel offensive. My English is not as good as yours, please forgive me if I use any improper wording in my post.

However, I re ...

you might get the point, at some stage.

now, it's still a mystery to you!

patrickzhu

原帖由 rogerk 于 2008-7-8 00:05 发表
感谢朱版加分鼓励，朱版理解我没有功劳也有苦劳，没有苦劳还有疲劳阿。。。

你最后的观点很好（Finally, I would say, it is not a bad thing on debating those topics. the debating could give more different views for the audience and there might be some new ideas coming out.）
论坛的目的就是能够让不同想法的人，聚在一起讲话。
各位同学都说得很精彩，我看的很过瘾啊