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[澳洲资讯] 澳洲的外交政策变得笨拙和傲慢 [复制链接]

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发表于 2021-9-20 02:14 |显示全部楼层
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本帖最后由 Hetbert 于 2021-9-20 02:22 编辑

AUKUS是18个月前澳洲开始和川皇政府谈的,今年三月澳洲才要求英国也加入。

[Sub headline] Only ten people in Britain knew about its plans to stand with Australia and the United States against Chinese aggression in the Indo-Pacific. This is how the deal was done

When the First Sea Lord was invited to a meeting at the Australian high commission in March this year, he had no idea of the magnitude of what was about to unfold. Admiral Sir Tony Radakin — described by colleagues as a “doer” — was asked by Vice-Admiral Michael Noonan, the Australian Chief of Navy, whether the British and Americans could help their ally to build a new fleet of nuclear-powered submarines.

The 12 Barracuda diesel-electric submarines that Australia had agreed to purchase from France five years earlier as part of a £47 billion contract were no longer enough to ward off the threat from China, which was pouring billions of pounds into building the world’s largest navy and fortifying islands outside its territorial waters.

They wanted ones that were faster, stealthier and with almost limitless endurance. The key was “surveillance”, according to defence sources familiar with the discussions.

“They had carried out a review and the ones they were getting were not fit for purpose. China has a lot of money but is not developed in some areas of capability,” the defence source said. The Australians wanted nuclear-powered submarines to “move quietly, sit outside a port, track movements, keep an eye on undersea cables and follow submarines in a move to curb Chinese reach in the region”, they added.

Both Britain and America not only had six decades of experience building up their own sovereign capability but were crucially in the Five Eyes intelligence-sharing partnership with Australia — unlike France — which meant they might be persuaded to give up their nuclear technology.

“That was the first contact. It was a big strategic play. He [Radakin] then came back and handed the whole thing over to [Sir Stephen] Lovegrove,” said a security source referring to the permanent secretary at that time at the Ministry of Defence. The source compared it to a scene out of the fictional John le Carré spy novels.

So began Operation Hookless — as it was codenamed inside No 10 —and the most closely guarded secret inside government in years. Only about ten people in Britain were privy to the details, including the prime minister, the foreign secretary and the defence secretary. Lovegrove, who was still the Ministry of Defence’s permanent secretary when handed the proposal, left the department to take on the job of national security adviser, making him even better placed to help carve out the deal of his career. John Bew, Johnson’s foreign policy adviser and the mastermind behind the integrated review that talked of a “tilt” towards the Indo-Pacific region, was also allowed into the fold. Those who were present were “read in”, meaning they had to sign a paper vowing not to let the secret details of the discussions out of the room.

After the initial meeting in March, the proposal was put to the Americans. “It took quite a long time to go through the American machine — it had to be discussed at the Pentagon, the state department and the energy department,” the source said. In the weeks that followed, those in the British circle believed there was a “20 per cent chance of it falling apart”.

The clock was ticking for the Australians, who warned the British government that there was a looming deadline where the costs for the French deal would quickly rack up and there would be no getting out of it. “The internal dynamics were delicate. It could easily have not come together,” said the security source.

Although initial conversations had begun around the submarines, back in No 10 an excited Johnson was keen for something much deeper. “Boris really pushed it. There was a choice about how broad it would be — was it just a technical agreement on a specific subject or is this more broad? Boris was pushing that it had to be as ambitious as possible. This was a strategic move,” a government source who was involved in the discussions said.

By the time of the G7 summit in Cornwall in June, the plans were well under way. As the French were occupied with the unfolding so-called “sausage war” over the Brexit divorce deal, Johnson, President Biden and Scott Morrison, the Australian prime minister — referred to as “ScoMo” in No 10 — thrashed out the details of a top-secret pact that would later be known as the “Aukus” defence and security alliance.

“There was a lot of noise at G7 about sausages and the EU and there was a lot of excitement around that, and it seemed odd for us that we were doing serious, serious, business in this meeting,” the government source added.

Yet they were braced for a backlash not only from China, but also from the French. A source said that Australia’s existing submarine deal with the French had put everyone in a “difficult situation”, adding: “No one had any desire to piss off the French, everyone knew it would be difficult.” Defence sources said that it was “nothing personal”, adding it was about the kit and questioned whether the French — who also have nuclear-powered submarines — would have been willing to share their sovereign capabilities with the Australians. The defence source said that it was different for the British given the fact the Australians were in the Commonwealth.

“Once you give that information you cannot get it back. You can only give it to the nations that you will be friends with for ever,” said the defence source, caveating the comment with the fact they said the UK was also extremely close to the French.

Although the rise of China was the “first order of concern” for the Australians, government sources said the pact went much deeper than Beijing and was more about the decades going forward and other security issues that could arise. “This matters in three administrations,” they said.

After the announcement of the pact this week, Lovegrove described it as “the most significant capability collaboration anywhere in the world in the past decades”. Senior figures in government have compared it to the 1958 mutual defence agreement (MDA) between President Eisenhower and Harold Macmillan, the British prime minister, and the beginning of the “special nuclear relationship” that allows the nations to exchange nuclear materials, technology and information — an agreement which continues today.

Given the importance of AUKUS, it is perhaps not surprising that Radakin — the man who brought it in — is rumoured to be one of two likely candidates for the new job as head of the armed forces.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/artic ... st-secret-dj7z5f8bh
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发表于 2021-9-20 03:21 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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从某些人鼓吹什么战争的鼓点已经敲响开始,我就知道后面的军费大单子不会少。

油水太丰厚了,我看这些个政客不会手上不粘满了油水。

发表于 2021-9-20 03:50 |显示全部楼层
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wdxzd521 发表于 2021-9-19 19:08
莫里森现在开心死了,终于和这俩玩到一起了,终于把我当回事儿了

The fellow from down under终于扬眉吐气了

发表于 2021-9-20 04:53 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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就喜欢看ID们对澳洲气急败坏口诛笔伐上蹿下跳却又无可奈何的样子

2019年度勋章

发表于 2021-9-20 06:20 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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sm375 发表于 2021-9-20 00:04
不管他是不是做的对,我觉得莫是个说啥就做啥的实在人,甚至是有点轴。急了自己能蹦出来直接怼赵立坚。。 ...

陆克文是中国支持派。哈哈。
舆论自由意味着容忍自己不喜欢的言论的存在。
我的观点当然可能是错误的。可以拉黑,无权屏蔽。

发表于 2021-9-20 06:22 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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e-top 发表于 2021-9-19 14:28
别问我啊

跟据smh的观点,你应该从陆克文开始一个个首相问起

你也是搞笑。之前也没人问为啥法国潜艇不好,你说了那么一大堆我还以为你是啥内部人事呢。这里要是能问陆克文谁还上论坛呀
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发表于 2021-9-20 07:41 |显示全部楼层
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本届政府 全球笑话

发表于 2021-9-20 08:04 |显示全部楼层
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莫总就是澳洲的川普,不把诚信当回事

发表于 2021-9-20 09:10 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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这话听着好像是在影射中共!小心中共被清理门户!

发表于 2021-9-20 09:28 |显示全部楼层
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xiangjia 发表于 2021-9-19 08:15
一系列骚操作,专业的外交人员在哪里?,澳洲外行领导内行什么时候能结束?快要被这群混蛋祸害光了。 ...

同感 还是要专业的官僚做专业的事情

发表于 2021-9-20 09:33 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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就喜欢看ID们对澳洲气急败坏口诛笔伐上蹿下跳却又无可奈何的样子
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发表于 2021-9-20 09:34 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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Perth好 发表于 2021-9-19 23:46
其他国家兜售就兜售呗,又没有买方信贷,不怕。

这种吃完原告吃被告的事情,世界上只有一个国家做的出来,也只有这个国家有能力做得到

发表于 2021-9-20 09:53 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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本帖最后由 e-top 于 2021-9-20 09:54 编辑
小桥流水人家 发表于 2021-9-20 06:22
你也是搞笑。之前也没人问为啥法国潜艇不好,你说了那么一大堆我还以为你是啥内部人事呢。这里要是能问陆 ...


我也是在足迹里闲逛搬砖

这事情之前还真不清楚这后面的梗这么多
甚至不懂为什么要潜艇
现在明白多了

促起这事最大功劳的从表面看是胡锡进了

发表于 2021-9-20 10:05 |显示全部楼层
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e-top 发表于 2021-9-20 09:53
我也是在足迹里闲逛搬砖

这事情之前还真不清楚这后面的梗这么多

老胡那么厉害了? 我差点以为他能进常委了,再不济,也应该列席军委了

发表于 2021-9-20 10:17 |显示全部楼层
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一丘之貉

发表于 2021-9-20 10:32 |显示全部楼层
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melpipi 发表于 2021-9-19 10:45
弱小必挨打,这句话是中国人共同的理念也是中国共产党的口头禅之一。

为什么澳洲为了国家不弱小而做的事在 ...

因为中国还有话:发展才是硬道理。
搁置争议,共同开发。
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发表于 2021-9-20 10:44 |显示全部楼层
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ysc 发表于 2021-9-19 23:39
军力升级只是暂时的短视。
不要忽略全球20-50年后的格局。
中国体制一定会更强大,也可能给周边国家更大 ...

你意思习近平才是世界的未来和灯塔呗。全世界都要学习中国共产党的好制度,是这意思吧?

发表于 2021-9-20 11:13 |显示全部楼层
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Hetbert 发表于 2021-9-19 17:26
对的。

要是美国牵头办个二手Fleet sharing就好了,便宜太多。

直接uber租一个核潜艇,按公里计费,多方便,还能刷信用卡攒积分

发表于 2021-9-20 11:13 |显示全部楼层
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melpipi 发表于 2021-9-20 10:44
你意思习近平才是世界的未来和灯塔呗。全世界都要学习中国共产党的好制度,是这意思吧? ...

错。
我从来没有说过GCD 好处(你去翻翻我过去帖子)

我预测一个大概率发生的事情,就是中国会变得越来越强大。
在这样的一个背景下,一个国家是要(1)靠近(2)中立(3)敌对 ?
我认为至少是靠近或者中立。做大国的敌人没好处啊。
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发表于 2021-9-20 11:16 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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skysadness 发表于 2021-9-20 11:13
直接uber租一个核潜艇,按公里计费,多方便,还能刷信用卡攒积分

就是。和租车一样,应该按时收费,再按里程surcharge。

再多个Rent to buy。

美军用最先进的,换代下来的二手,都租给小弟。

发表于 2021-9-20 11:18 |显示全部楼层
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ysc 发表于 2021-9-20 11:13
错。
我从来没有说过GCD 好处(你去翻翻我过去帖子)

对对对,你被流氓打了一棍子,还要笑着把脸凑过去让他再抽两下
你的口味真是与众不同
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发表于 2021-9-20 11:19 |显示全部楼层
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investment2012 发表于 2021-9-19 08:58
极右翼的特点就是愚蠢和傲慢
得罪法国时,终于澳洲开始自省了;之前对中国各种外交失误,还要把所有问题推 ...

看了TWITTER上的回复,不少都是觉得澳洲做错了,如果对方是中国,估计都会叫好的。。。

发表于 2021-9-20 11:19 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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ysc 发表于 2021-9-20 09:13
错。
我从来没有说过GCD 好处(你去翻翻我过去帖子)


干翻大国,这是澳洲历史上和现在始终在做的
遥遥领先,谣谣领先

发表于 2021-9-20 11:20 |显示全部楼层
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海风砚池水 发表于 2021-9-20 11:18
对对对,你被流氓打了一棍子,还要笑着把脸凑过去让他再抽两下
你的口味真是与众不同
...

第一请不要引申到个人, 这个比喻不合适。

在没有选择的情况下(你能改变中国与澳洲的地理位置吗?),合作是最好的解决办法。

你有这种想法,我估计你还年轻气盛。没有经历过丛林法则。很多事情是你不能选择的,是被动的。 你能做的,就是在最差的几个结果里选一个好的。 仅此而已。

发表于 2021-9-20 11:22 |显示全部楼层
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ysc 发表于 2021-9-20 11:20
第一请不要引申到个人, 这个比喻不合适。

在没有选择的情况下(你能改变中国与澳洲的地理位置吗?), ...

这是你的看法而已
澳洲有现成的大哥罩着,为什么要怕流氓啊,干就是了

发表于 2021-9-20 11:22 |显示全部楼层
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Perth好 发表于 2021-9-20 11:19
干翻大国,这是澳洲历史上和现在始终在做的

啥时候澳洲干翻大国了?
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发表于 2021-9-20 11:23 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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ysc 发表于 2021-9-20 09:22
啥时候澳洲干翻大国了?

两次世界大战,澳洲都是战胜国

发表于 2021-9-20 11:24 |显示全部楼层
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海风砚池水 发表于 2021-9-20 11:22
这是你的看法而已
澳洲有现成的大哥罩着,为什么要怕流氓啊,干就是了

现在是,将来就不是啊。。。 我的判断是10-20年中美平起平坐。
因为GCD现在就是全国齐心(牺牲民众个人利益)一起发展。 美国做不到。

发表于 2021-9-20 11:25 |显示全部楼层
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Perth好 发表于 2021-9-20 11:23
两次世界大战,澳洲都是战胜国

噗。。。我要笑出来了。

发表于 2021-9-20 11:27 来自手机 |显示全部楼层
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ysc 发表于 2021-9-20 09:25
噗。。。我要笑出来了。

嘲笑历史毫无意义,你对大国的理解有偏差,两次世界大战的战败国都是当时的大国和列强,要是按你的逻辑澳洲早就跪了,毕竟日本都打到本土了。
遥遥领先,谣谣领先

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