投资损失是否可以抵扣其他收入（如果是trader）

fysydney

各位大虾，我想问一下股票（期货，外汇）的投资损失是否可以抵扣自己的其他收入（打工收入）。今年做了一些CFD，产生了一些损失，听别人曾经说过如果满足一定条件，损失（和其他一些费用）是可以抵扣其他收入的，从而产生较少的所得税。要不然这些损失只能带到下一年抵扣下一年的投资收入。

1.第一个问题是是否能够这样去做，如果可以，我相信会有很苛刻的条件，请问这些条件是什么？
2.因为做的事CFD,今年2月份开始的（去年6月到今年1月交易记录是空白），最近几个月每个月交易量（exposure）最少大概有几十万澳元，我想应该可以满足ATO关于trader的要求吧？是吗？
3.如果满足trader的要求，是不是还需要注册个ABN？如果现在去申请晚不晚？（损失已经产生）
4.如果不能这样抵扣收入，今年产生的费用（e.g.部分房租）和投资损失是否都可以带到明年抵扣投资收入呢？


谢谢。

休

1，可以
2，不一定满足,几十万澳元听来吓人,实际是放大100倍的,实际动用金钱不多.
3，随便
4，正确

fysydney

谢谢斑竹的回答。

能不能麻烦告诉我具体点。

1.虽然CFD是放大100倍，可是exposure是很大的，如果发生损失，和用1：1的钱去投资的效果是一样的。我看到ATO网站上有一个例子分辨trader和invester，如果能够以exposure为准那应该没问题。请问你说不一定是根据经验还是ATO有相关说明，能不能告诉具体一点，这个关系到一切。或者有一个大概标准（比如本金，损失，利润要超过多少）也可以。
2.如果注不注册ABN都随便，那对于我的情况，有什么区别呢？是否注册比较好一点？
3.关于如果申报（保税），假设三种情况，
第一种，我可以抵扣本人其他收入，在今年报税的时候是不是可以通过etax就申报了，如果可以，应该在哪个部分填写这部分损失和费用呢？
第二种，如果申请了ABN，是否需要通过business（而不是个人的etax）报税呢？
第三种，如果不能抵扣其他收入，是否也是通过etax申报呢，在哪个部分？
4.在ATO网站的大概哪个部分我能够找到相应信息，找了半天还没有解答我的疑惑。

非常感谢。

fiji

你这种情况，最好直接去咨询会计师。让他帮你做，你自己做不来的

hohoho

Quote:
Gains

The ATO has taken the view that gains from trading CFDs will be assessable income-
(i) where the CFD is entered into as an ordinary incident of carrying on a business;
(ii) where the profit was obtained in a business operation;
(iii) where the profit was obtained in a commercial transaction for the purpose of profit making; or
(iv) where the profit is made in carrying on or out a profit making scheme.
Further, the ATO has taken the view that even an isolated CFD transaction can be considered to produce assessable income for the taxpayer. It should be noted that the ATO’s interpretation of what would fall within these parameters is very broad and appears likely to include all CFD trading, whether frequent or not.

Capital Gains Tax

While gains or losses would most often be on revenue account because it is
expected that the CFD is usually entered into for a profit-making purpose, where it
can be said that there was never any such purpose, then in that event (unless it is for
recreational gambling – see above), the gain or loss would be an assessable capital
gain.

good disussion under this link
http://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7401

hohoho

for the ATO law, see:

http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/vie ... 10&pn=ALL:::ALL

休

1,卖买频率比涉及总资金更重要,没60次以上很难满足trader条件.
2,我看不出有多大区别
3,
1 可以, business 部份
2,对你而言,不需要.
3, capital gain 部份, carrying forward loss

fysydney

谢谢。这样讨论tax也挺有意思的，学到了不少东西。

如果是以60次为标准，我的交易次数应该可以达到了。不过我的交易仅仅限于2009年，08年下半年基本上没有交易，仅仅09年的交易能否满足一年都是trader的要求。因为我想把08年产生的一些费用，比如房租的一部分当作home office，一起当作费用抵扣。这样做有没有问题？

fiji说我自己做不来，最好找会计师做，请问根据我的情况，保税很复杂吗？如果只是在etax上填填。

just interested，如果做trader或者自己做生意既可以通过个人保税，不用ABN，也可以申请ABN，那ABN在什么情况下是必要或者有好处的呢？

还是谢谢大家的回复。

leo727

同意休版意见
关于怎么判断trader这一点上，没有一个划一的交易次数，
ato采用的观点是，交易次数越多越频繁，动用资金越多，交易目的以低买高卖赚取差价为目的，就基本上可以判断为是trader了

fysydney

谢谢。

请问如果我08年下半年基本上没有交易，仅仅09年的交易能否满足一年都是trader的要求？我能否把08年产生的一些费用（比如房租的一部分当作home office），一起当作费用抵扣？这样做有没有问题？

如果做trade（r或者自己做生意）既可以通过个人保税，也可以申请ABN，那ABN什么情况下是必需的呢？

thanks

qisiwole

原帖由 fysydney 于 2009-5-10 16:34 发表
谢谢。

请问如果我08年下半年基本上没有交易，仅仅09年的交易能否满足一年都是trader的要求？我能否把08年产生的一些费用（比如房租的一部分当作home office），一起当作费用抵扣？这样做有没有问题？

如果做t ...

就算是trader也不是随便就可以offset other income,去找会计吧， 省了点会计费，可能要多交好多税呢，如果都能自己搞定，会计就都下岗了。

fysydney

请问有没有好的报税会计介绍，我在悉尼东区。

Devil_Star

投机股票和衍生物的损失只能和同类型收入抵消， 就是说不可以和工资还有其它生意上的收入抵消。 这和房地产投资负扣税是不一样的。

fysydney

两个斑竹给的意见不一样，到底能不能抵扣其他收入呢？

leo727

Non-commercial loss 是否可以抵消工资收入，取决于是否满足ato公布的4个test，只要满足任何一个就可以抵消，最容易的一个test是，sale > 20000

Devil_Star

http://www.compareshares.com.au/adv19.php

“Capital losses can be used to offset any capital gains made during the income year. Or, if you do not offset all the capital losses against capital gains in the current year, then you can carry the left over loss forward to future years. Importantly, capital losses cannot be used to offset tax on any other income. So if you lose $3,000 selling XYZ shares (and you are not classed as a trader), you cannot offset your capital loss against your wage or business income - only other capital gains. ”

这个说的是SHARES， 不过除了CAPITAL GAIN CONCESSION不能应用在CFD上外，上面说的也适用于CFD。

fysydney

谢谢，上边的情况应该实用于不是trader的情况，如果被认为是trader，应该和普通business一样吧。如果达到一定标准，应该可以抵消其他收入吧。

我听过是否可以抵消工资收入取决于ato的4个test，对于share trading，sale > 20000意味着什么么？我对于这点是比较疑惑的。

leo727

直接给你上原文
You will be able to offset a loss against other income if your business meets at least one of the following criteria:

the assessable income from your business is at least $20,000 in the income year. If you have not carried on your business for a full year, you can make a reasonable estimate of what you would have made over a full year
your business has a profit in three of the past five years, including the current year. A business has a profit when its assessable income is more than its tax deductions for the income year
your business uses or has an interest in, real property worth at least $500,000, and that property is used on a continuing basis in a business activity. Real property includes land; interests in land such as leases; and structures, such as buildings, fixed to the land (excludes your private residence and adjacent land)
the value of other assets you use in your business on a continuing basis is at least $100,000. You can count the value of four types of assets; depreciable assets, trading stock, leased assets, and trademarks, copyrights and similar rights. (Motor vehicles are excluded.)

yuanfangnk

what's the implication of these 4 criterias on share/CFD trading business? I guess to be eligible for offseting a loss from share trading against other income, the criterias that are most likely to be met are 1 and 4. But what the implication of "the assessable income from your business is at least $20,000 in the income year" or "the value of other assets you use in your business on a continuing basis is at least $100,000" on CFD trading business, does it mean exposure, or the $ you put in the business?