关于公司架构的合理避税，我这样理解对不对？

Momotaba

原帖由 hahawa_sapi 于 2012-2-6 21:21 发表


请问公司以前交过的30%税怎么才能退？如果不退的话公司交30%，个人拿到了又要交个人税，就没有意义了。

我假设这里你指的个人是share holder;另外个人拿到的，我假设是dividend.

那么我想弱弱的问一句不是可以有franking credit attached 吗？ 个人是要declare dividends as his income,但同时个人还是entitled to franking credit offset to reduce tax payable.

不知道我是不是回答了你的问题，还是我没看懂你的问题啊？

hahawa_sapi

原帖由 Momotaba 于 2012-2-6 21:47 发表

我假设这里你指的个人是share holder;另外个人拿到的，我假设是dividend.

那么我想弱弱的问一句不是可以有franking credit attached 吗？ 个人是要declare dividends as his income,但同时个人还是entitled to frankin ...

不好意思还是没懂，我的意思，简单算，假设公司每人平均下来是100k收入，发工资给我发了50k,那么剩下50k放在公司就要交30%的税，实际剩35k,如果第二年公司分红给我，这35k我还要再交个人所得税吗？？

Poweregg

原帖由 hahawa_sapi 于 7/2/2012 20:13 发表


不好意思还是没懂，我的意思，简单算，假设公司每人平均下来是100k收入，发工资给我发了50k,那么剩下50k放在公司就要交30%的税，实际剩35k,如果第二年公司分红给我，这35k我还要再交个人所得税吗？？

35k给你带15k franking credit
税务局眼里你收入是50k，交了15k税
至于是补税还是退税，看你当年应税收入

hahawa_sapi

原帖由 Poweregg 于 2012-2-7 21:23 发表


35k给你带15k franking credit
税务局眼里你收入是50k，交了15k税
至于是补税还是退税，看你当年应税收入

so公司分红这部分收入由于公司已经交过税，转成个人的franking credit?个人假设第二年其他收入100k,对税局来按实际收入150k来算税收，再扣除15k已经有的credit,多退少补，我的理解对嘛？

Momotaba

原帖由 hahawa_sapi 于 2012-2-7 21:31 发表


so公司分红这部分收入由于公司已经交过税，转成个人的franking credit?个人假设第二年其他收入100k,对税局来按实际收入150k来算税收，再扣除15k已经有的credit,多退少补，我的理解对嘛？

同意你的理解。

qichxi

插个题外话，trust不是必须分红，否则税高嘛

那么unit trust的分红是什么时候必须完成？7月1日？

Momotaba

原帖由 qichxi 于 2012-2-8 00:25 发表
插个题外话，trust不是必须分红，否则税高嘛

那么unit trust的分红是什么时候必须完成？7月1日？

My understanding is that the ATO had an interpretative decision which is IT 328.

IT 328 indicates in the final paragraph that the commissioner of the Tax office will allow the distribution made after two months of the final year. To me that means by 31st of August every year.

However that IT 328 has been withdrawn after Bamford case decision. Now my understanding is that you have to do it by the end of financial year which is 30th of June. I understand in practice it will be hard but that is the current postion we are in. This applies from 01/07/2012.

Here is the link for IT 328: (read the final paragraph)
http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/execute_search_java.htm

Good luck!

[ 本帖最后由 Momotaba 于 2012-2-8 08:44 编辑 ]

stevenhu

I'm in Vic

Poweregg

原帖由 Momotaba 于 8/2/2012 07:42 发表

My understanding is that the ATO had an interpretative decision which is IT 328.

IT 328 indicates in the final paragraph that the commissioner of the Tax office will allow the distribution made afte ...

这个分红主要该是 写Trust Distritbution Minutes
就是6月底一定要写清楚今年的钱怎么分配

写了这个Trust Distritbution Minutes，等于钱分好了，成了un present entilement，实际分配可以晚点
（Maomaotaba或者其他高人帮忙确认一下?）

Momotaba

原帖由 Poweregg 于 2012-2-8 10:37 发表


这个分红主要该是 写Trust Distritbution Minutes
就是6月底一定要写清楚今年的钱怎么分配

写了这个Trust Distritbution Minutes，等于钱分好了，成了un present entilement，实际分配可以晚点
（Maomaotaba或者其他高人帮忙确认一下?）

As I stated at 37 lou, this view of "实际分配可以晚点" is allowed previously because of IT 328 which stated in practice the commissioner will allow the distribution made within two months of the end of year.

But since IT 328 has been withdrawn because it conflicts with the legislation. I believe now the postion from 1st of July 2012 will be the resolution has to be done by 30th of June as well as distribution made to the beneficiaries.

If you made a distribution pass the end of year, that distribution may not be recognised for the previous financial year.

I will paste some infor here for you which I took from withdrawl notice of IT 328 to back up my view point:

IT 328 also says that, while a strict application of section 101 may require that income be paid or applied before the end of the income year, the Commissioner will accept that a payment or application of income made within two months of the close of the income year is effective for the purposes of section 101 (provided the other requirements of the section are complied with and the assessments raised under section 97 or 98 are accepted).

However,The legislative requirement for present entitlement to arise by year end means that, absent the practice set out in IT 328, a beneficiary who has only been made presently entitled to trust income after year end will not be assessed on a share of the net income of the trust estate under section 97.

As the relevant principles for determining present entitlement have been articulated in court decisions made since IT 328 first issued, and as the administrative practice discussed in paragraph 6 is contrary to that articulation of the legislative requirement, IT 328 is accordingly withdrawn.


If you read the following closely, I hope you will see what I see. Tell me what you think after your reading.

As always here is the link for that infor on ATO website:

http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/execute_search_java.htm

Happy reading!

[ 本帖最后由 Momotaba 于 2012-2-8 12:50 编辑 ]

stevenhu

Can't find the information when click the link

Momotaba

原帖由 stevenhu 于 2012-2-8 17:48 发表
Can't find the information when click the link

Sorry the link is not working properly.

If you follow the following steps you will locate it eventually:
1. Go to legal database home page: http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/index.htm
2. Click view a document on your left hand side: http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/findldbatodocs.htm
3. Type in IT 328 in the reference box and click search
4. Click the first hyper link for IT 328 and if you click the second hyper link you will find the notice withdrawn information which I have pasted in the above post.

Try it and see if it works for you.

[ 本帖最后由 Momotaba 于 2012-2-8 21:11 编辑 ]

Poweregg

原帖由 Momotaba 于 8/2/2012 11:48 发表


As I stated at 37 lou, this view of "实际分配可以晚点" is allowed previously because of IT 328 which stated in practice the commissioner will allow the distribution made within two months of the end ...

看这个视频，他说的是做distribution minutes
而不是distribution money

在6月30日前分钱，最困难的就是，对于做生意的trust，甚至有定存的trust，在6月30日之前，根本没办法算出来你有多少income，怎么分钱啊
连taxable income都不知道，根本没法计算啊

Momotaba

原帖由 Poweregg 于 2012-2-9 09:49 发表


看这个视频，他说的是做distribution minutes
而不是distribution money

在6月30日前分钱，最困难的就是，对于做生意的trust，甚至有定存的trust，在6月30日之前，根本没办法算出来你有多少income，怎么分钱啊
连taxable income都不知道，根本没法计算啊

I have double-checked with one of my senior colleagues on this issue as she has more experience in dealing with trust issues.

According to her, present entitlement has to be decided by 30th of June from 2013 financial year onwards as well as resolution and minutes etc.

She gave me a link to prove her point.

Here is the link: http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses ... m&page=9&H9

Read under the heading Time limit to record the entitlement

She seems to think the distribution can be made after the end of income year. But I have to say it is not clear on this issue as I don't think the ATO has spelt it out in any rulings as far as I know of.

Then without an ATO view, people inevitable will speculate and apply personal interpretation of the law which is very dangerous sometimes as you are not 100% sure if ATO accepts your interpretation.

The best way to get clarity on any tax related issues, ask ATO for a private ruling. In that way you got covered as you have the ruling issued from the ATO.

[ 本帖最后由 Momotaba 于 2012-2-9 12:27 编辑 ]

LENNY_DONG

原帖由 茄菲 于 2012-2-3 23:39 发表


考虑一下Capital Gain, 这种模式存在就合理了.

CAPITAL GAIN?

ANY CAPITAL GAIN BENEFIT FOR COMPANY STRUCTURE?

qichxi

看来trust很复杂啊，连什么时候必须要分红也很模糊，还不如就直接用company算了。

Momotaba

原帖由 qichxi 于 2012-2-9 11:01 发表
看来trust很复杂啊，连什么时候必须要分红也很模糊，还不如就直接用company算了。

But for company you will not be entitled for 50% CGT discount whereas for trust it is ok.

qichxi

请教了一个会计，说最好的结构应该是

beneficiary：person（ABC。。。），companyD
trustee：companyE

baobeima

mark

Poweregg

原帖由 qichxi 于 12/2/2012 22:58 发表
请教了一个会计，说最好的结构应该是

beneficiary：person（ABC。。。），companyD
trustee：companyE

不就是最土的结构吗
Corporate Trustee + company beneficiary

会计师这么推荐，是你有两个公司要报税，他们可以收两份钱

beneficiary公司，在我看来，根本不急着成立，等你taxable income分给其他受益人时分不完再成立
何况benefiaciary公司的钱交了税，税后利润也不能给trust用

qichxi

而且，会计说不管怎么折腾，税最多就控制在30%了，如果30%以下基本没方法。

他说的是分红很高，分红的人很少的情况。

Poweregg

原帖由 qichxi 于 13/2/2012 09:56 发表
而且，会计说不管怎么折腾，税最多就控制在30%了，如果30%以下基本没方法。

他说的是分红很高，分红的人很少的情况。

税是控制在30%了，可是beneficiary公司税后利润不能随便用，要拿要按dividend方式拿

qichxi

原帖由 Poweregg 于 2012-2-13 13:58 发表


税是控制在30%了，可是beneficiary公司税后利润不能随便用，要拿要按dividend方式拿

beneficiary公司税后利润给股东呢？就不需要按dividend方式把？

我感觉貌似trust只有把事情复杂化啊，可能几万的小生意适合通过trust来把利润通过人头消化掉。

如果金额大了以后，就没有什么明显的好处。（可能官司纠纷时可以做个双重保护）

Poweregg

原帖由 qichxi 于 13/2/2012 17:46 发表


beneficiary公司税后利润给股东呢？就不需要按dividend方式把？

我感觉貌似trust只有把事情复杂化啊，可能几万的小生意适合通过trust来把利润通过人头消化掉。

如果金额大了以后，就没有什么明显的好处。（可能官司纠纷时可以做个双重保护）

beneficiary公司税后利润给股东不需要按dividend，就是带着Franking Credit

trust~~trust~~~family trust~~~是的，一家人分分钱而已，适合家庭人口多的

qichxi

那其实，还是搞pty ltd好

qichxi

可能像有些人说的，trust看上去很美

Poweregg

原帖由 qichxi 于 14/2/2012 11:01 发表
可能像有些人说的，trust看上去很美

实际也不错啊
老婆孩子谁谁谁都加进来
就是ATO太操蛋，把法规搞得乱死

salli-anne2009

强力马克

qichxi

原帖由 Poweregg 于 2012-2-14 12:02 发表


实际也不错啊
老婆孩子谁谁谁都加进来
就是ATO太操蛋，把法规搞得乱死

我觉的利润小的可以通过人头摊薄，如果利润大了，trust就没有用了。

反而，要注册trust，还有两个company，每年的支出不少。

雨睿

原帖由 qichxi 于 2012-2-14 17:36 发表


我觉的利润小的可以通过人头摊薄，如果利润大了，trust就没有用了。

反而，要注册trust，还有两个company，每年的支出不少。

个人也可以是trustee的
beneficiary company也可以不成立
所以，连ASIC年检都不需要：）

不过还是喜欢corporate trustee，房子股票之类，换trustee只要换director就行，不然还要一个一个改名字，虽然免印花税之类也麻烦