新足迹

 找回密码
 注册

精华好帖回顾

· 同舟共济三人行——丰盛温馨的圣诞晚餐 (2006-12-25) poloand · 房市怎么了?看图说话。 (2013-10-3) 黑山老妖
· 关系胜于一切(转) (2008-10-17) 第一名 · [米小苏原创系列]浅谈在乡下做生意的利与弊(原创)(二楼已更新) (2010-10-27) 七朵花
Advertisement
Advertisement
查看: 2335|回复: 27

[个股讨论] QR National发行价是否太高了?欢迎发表意见。 [复制链接]

发表于 2010-10-12 19:43 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 cycnus 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 cycnus 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
粗粗看了一下,发行价如果算作$2.8的话,那PE接近19了,年收入增长还算稳健,但不算太高。
这样的情况,发行价是否太高了?
欢迎各位发表意见,如果有人仔细研究过,更欢迎提出你的看法!
Advertisement
Advertisement

发表于 2010-10-12 20:32 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 Happybanana 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 Happybanana 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
ASX's IPOs' PE is ranged between 18-22 I think, 19 appears reasonable - personal view

评分

参与人数 1积分 +2 收起 理由
cycnus + 2 谢谢奉献

查看全部评分

退役斑竹

发表于 2010-10-12 20:46 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 Devil_Star 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 Devil_Star 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
原帖由 cycnus 于 2010-10-12 20:43 发表
粗粗看了一下,发行价如果算作$2.8的话,那PE接近19了,年收入增长还算稳健,但不算太高。
这样的情况,发行价是否太高了?
欢迎各位发表意见,如果有人仔细研究过,更欢迎提出你的看法! ...


市场预测: 政府控制是LOW E的原因, 私有上市公司可以大幅提高上市后E值。

评分

参与人数 1积分 +2 收起 理由
cycnus + 2 谢谢奉献

查看全部评分

海賊王に俺はなる!
背中の傷は、剣士の恥だ!
生きたいッ!
パンツ見せてもらってもよろしいでしょうか!
It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but rather the one most adaptable to change.
[img][/img]

发表于 2010-10-12 20:52 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 odysseus 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 odysseus 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
在电视上看到QR NATIONAL的AD,AD的最后涉及到QUEENSLAND GOV,就想问一下,QUEENSLAND GOV在这次IPO里面扮演什么角色?

坛子里有人认购嘛???

发表于 2010-10-12 21:43 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 cycnus 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 cycnus 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
原帖由 odysseus 于 2010-10-12 20:52 发表
在电视上看到QR NATIONAL的AD,AD的最后涉及到QUEENSLAND GOV,就想问一下,QUEENSLAND GOV在这次IPO里面扮演什么角色?

坛子里有人认购嘛???


QR的东家是Queensland Gov。

发表于 2010-10-12 21:46 |显示全部楼层

回复 5# 的帖子

此文章由 odysseus 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 odysseus 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
谢谢,怪不得在电视上狂做广告,羊毛出在羊身上,这也是一笔不小的开支!
Advertisement
Advertisement

发表于 2010-10-12 22:22 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 bkky 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 bkky 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
有谁准备登记吗

发表于 2010-10-14 21:50 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 ken993 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 ken993 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
就看一点啊, 澳洲的铁矿石都是靠铁路运到港口的,
而且运力严重不足,

所以, 只要铁矿石不倒, 还是有很大潜力的。。。

发表于 2010-10-14 21:54 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 cycnus 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 cycnus 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
原帖由 ken993 于 2010-10-14 21:50 发表
就看一点啊, 澳洲的铁矿石都是靠铁路运到港口的,
而且运力严重不足,

所以, 只要铁矿石不倒, 还是有很大潜力的。。。


不过好像BHP,RIO这些大家伙都有自己的运输体系呢。

发表于 2010-10-14 23:09 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 Happybanana 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 Happybanana 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
我不可以买QR的。。。新闻上这些大的miners是更qld政府bid QR的

发表于 2010-10-15 14:36 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 terry11 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 terry11 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
原帖由 Happybanana 于 2010-10-15 00:09 发表
我不可以买QR的。。。新闻上这些大的miners是更qld政府bid QR的

为什么你不可以买QR?
Advertisement
Advertisement

发表于 2010-10-15 14:50 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 azurechris 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 azurechris 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
同问

退役斑竹

发表于 2010-10-15 15:06 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 Devil_Star 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 Devil_Star 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
原帖由 ken993 于 2010-10-14 22:50 发表
就看一点啊, 澳洲的铁矿石都是靠铁路运到港口的,
而且运力严重不足,

所以, 只要铁矿石不倒, 还是有很大潜力的。。。


What are you talking about mate? QR has nothing to do with iron ore.
海賊王に俺はなる!
背中の傷は、剣士の恥だ!
生きたいッ!
パンツ見せてもらってもよろしいでしょうか!
It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but rather the one most adaptable to change.
[img][/img]

退役斑竹

发表于 2010-10-15 15:08 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 Devil_Star 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 Devil_Star 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
There's a SWAT report for QR on this weeks BRW.  For those who are interested.

发表于 2010-10-15 15:40 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 一路向北 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 一路向北 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
两个月前去拜访了一趟QR,真是一个官僚机构啊。我是不会认购的。。。

发表于 2010-10-15 15:44 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 CDCD 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 CDCD 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
不认购。发行价过高。未来很有可能像Telstra似的。
Advertisement
Advertisement

发表于 2010-10-15 16:22 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 Happybanana 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 Happybanana 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
原帖由 terry11 于 2010-10-15 15:36 发表

为什么你不可以买QR?


我是involve在这宗交易里的,所以不会有要不要认购的问题,因为不可以买

发表于 2010-10-15 16:38 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 page0023 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 page0023 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
套个流行的概念,这家公司是搞物流的。大家觉得是周期性的行业吗?

发表于 2010-10-16 02:06 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 billtheman 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 billtheman 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
底下的Union工人很团结。。。烫手山芋呢

发表于 2010-10-16 11:23 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 江苏小伙子 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 江苏小伙子 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
看了一下QR的资料,本来准备买些的,现在准备放弃。

QR本身负债就蛮高了500M
Dividend太低,第一年3.7cent,第二年8.3cent,而且第一年的dividend不是franked:

the first dividend of 3.7 cents per Share is expected to be paid in September 2011 in respect of the period from 1 December 2010 to 30 June 2011
dividend of 8.3 cents per Share is expected to be paid in respect of the financial year ended 30 June 2012.

The Directors intend to frank dividends to the greatest extent possible, however, at the time of Listing, QR National will have no available franking credits given it is emerging from State ownership. As a result, the first dividend payable in September 2011 will not be franked.

除非长期持有,好像短期回报不高。

评分

参与人数 1积分 +2 收起 理由
cycnus + 2 谢谢奉献

查看全部评分

沉迷于网球。。。。

发表于 2010-10-16 23:39 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 cycnus 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 cycnus 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
谢谢楼上各位。
我也疑惑股价偏高,可是又觉得这不像是政府发股的风格啊。:o
Advertisement
Advertisement

发表于 2010-10-17 07:12 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 woody 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 woody 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
债务上: 巨额债务的公司在2008次贷危机中的教训绝不可小视。这个是关键。
回报上: 太低已是事实
管理上:  骨子里的国营企业管理
风险上: 煤炭,相对有点点不可预测性

市场可比性股票,比如 AIO, 以前的Patrick, TOLL中的Pacific National。

。。。。当然,目前大盘环境上市,短期内很很难见其风险。三思,只是希望它不是第二个Telstra

随便找个评论,供参考:

QR National off the rails
By James Greenhalgh
James Greenhalgh really wanted to like the QR National float. But financial engineering, soon-to-balloon debt levels and feeble cash flow derailed his enthusiasm. This is a poor quality, over-priced offer.

Reading time: 6 minutes

The front cover of QR National’s prospectus shouts ‘BE PART OF SOMETHING BIG’. Size, the promoters should be informed, is not a sensible investment criterion. If it were, we’d have recommended Babcock and Brown and ABC Learning Centres in 2007 when they boasted market capitalisations greater than QR National (for the record, we didn’t).
Key points

QR National’s hunger for cash means returns to shareholders are likely to be low





Without a government subsidy and dubious accounting policies, the forecasts would look much worse





Despite the hype, this float is poor quality and overpriced to boot










But when you’re selling something as fundamentally unattractive as QR National you need a pitch, a narrative around which the parties selling out can talk a few people into buying in. For this float, size happens to be it.

Why? Simple. There’s not much else on which to make a case.

Let’s start with QR National’s astonishing hunger for capital. Top quality businesses produce prodigious cash flow. QR National consumes it in a way only bad businesses can manage. There will be $7.2bn in capital expenditure between 2008 and 2012, a figure dwarfing the $3.4bn in operating cash flow the company expects to produce over the same period (see Chart 1). Remember that’s before deducting interest and tax.

Yes, building tracks and acquiring locomotives and wagons to haul coal is an expensive business. But when said business consumes a lot more cash than it produces, that’s a big red flag.

Management, naturally, will argue that the capital expenditure will deliver profit growth and there’s some substance to that claim. Earnings before interest, tax, depreciation and amortisation (EBITDA) are forecast to rise from $417m in 2008 to $1,101m in 2012. But focusing on EBITDA is a bit like saying ‘earnings before costs’; all that capital spending means depreciation and amortisation—vital costs to consider—will also rise from $318m to $523m over the same period.

Then there’s the financial engineering, something the Queensland government was keen to avoid after float shockers like RiverCity Motorway. But the tricks are there nonetheless, chief among them the capitalisation of interest on assets under construction.

Dubious accounting

Here’s how it works. Based on an assumed interest rate of 7% (and it could well be higher), QR National will be paying out an annualised $203m of cash interest from 2012. And yet, page 107 of the prospectus indicates that only $53m of interest expense will be recognised in that year. Some of the difference relates to timing, but a significant part of it relates to interest capitalisation. It’s legal but far from conservative. The effect is to make the profit look better, at least in the short term. It’s all part of the narrative.

QR National looks conservatively financed. The current debt of $500m compares favourably to the market capitalisation of $6.8bn (at the maximum retail price of $2.80 a share). The trouble is it won’t stay that way. By the end of 2012, QR National’s capital expenditure program means it will have drawn down additional debt of $2.4bn, giving it about $2.9bn of debt by the end of 2012. That’s a huge increase that puts the company on a fundamentally different footing, especially if business conditions deteriorate.

Finally, there’s the ‘will they, won’t they?’ government subsidy. QR National has three divisions, only two of which are profitable. The third, QRN Freight, lost $96m in 2010. Quite by magic, the freight division will become profitable in 2011 and 2012. The government will wave its subsidy wand to the tune of $150m in 2011 and $148m in 2012. There’s no guarantee the subsidy will persist after 2015 when QR National’s contract with the Queensland government ends.

The debt levels, heavy capital expenditure program, government subsidy, and aggressive accounting treatments demand a circumspect eye. We’d look past these shortcomings—or at least try—if we could purchase at the right price a monopoly business like this one.

Not worth book value

At $2.80, you’re acquiring QR National at book value. But sometimes capital-intensive businesses, as this one surely is, aren’t worth even that.

Certainly, the forecast return on equity is well below par at 5.4%. Neither do we have much confidence in management’s capital allocation skills. QR’s managing director Lance Hockridge is a former executive of the equally capital intensive BlueScope Steel, a company we’ve long disliked, while its chairman John Prescott was responsible for BHP’s Magma Copper fiasco in the 1990s.
Key information
Retail offer closes
12 Nov.



Institutional bookbuild
18-19 Nov.



Listing date
22 Nov.



No. of shares (m)
2,440



Indicative price range ($)
2.50-3.00



Maximum retail price ($)
2.80



Market capitalisation* ($m)
6,832



2012 PER* (x)
18.5



2012 Div. yield* (%)
3.0



Franking (%)
0



* Based on $2.80









Other metrics fail to excite. At $2.80, QR National will be trading on a 2012 forecast PER of 19—very high for a capital-intensive business. Its 2012 forecast unfranked dividend of 8.3 cents implies a paltry yield of 3.0%, which is why the float is pitched as a growth story; a story, in effect, that’s a play on coal volumes going up.

The Queensland government is fortunate that the market is willing to price QR National on similar multiples to Asciano, another capital intensive company we’ve also had cause to avoid (see Asciano deserves a wide berth). Of course, it’s in the Queensland government’s interest to price this float keenly. A ‘stag profit’ on listing may help to pacify unhappy voters, and the government fully intends to sell its remaining stake (somewhere between 25% and 40%) after 2012. The fact that QR National’s coal company customers were prepared to pay more than $5bn for its best bits before the float may also put a floor under the stock.

But it’s a dangerous game to look for short-term profits in difficult or overpriced businesses. In this case, QR National is both. After the disappointment that was the Myer float, we were hoping QR National might be a more interesting proposition. If anything, it’s worse. AVOID.

[ 本帖最后由 woody 于 2010-10-17 08:44 编辑 ]

发表于 2010-10-17 12:43 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 clip 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 clip 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
原帖由 page0023 于 2010-10-15 17:38 发表
套个流行的概念,这家公司是搞物流的。大家觉得是周期性的行业吗?

物流是属于周期性行业板块的

发表于 2010-10-18 21:36 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 ZUJILANE 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 ZUJILANE 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
我已经申请了,看了大家的观点,觉得不看好的偏多,只有等上市时尽快外处理了。必境零售客户比起机构客户来说还有10C折扣。最坏打算应可COVER手续费之类开销。

发表于 2010-10-19 15:13 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 cuiweiqd 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 cuiweiqd 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
我也申请了3000股,还是比较看好昆州矿业的发展前景的,上市开盘一周之内看看价格走势再作决定好了。

发表于 2010-10-21 12:16 |显示全部楼层

QR shares

此文章由 网中人 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 网中人 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
递交了申请表,但还没交钱。现看很多人都不看好,就不想买了。我现可以不买了吗?
Advertisement
Advertisement

发表于 2010-10-25 15:16 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 twitter2010 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 twitter2010 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
我也是,网上申请了,还没转账,一天要是不给钱,申请是不是没效呀?

发表于 2010-10-25 21:13 |显示全部楼层
此文章由 Wangmingtaoau 原创或转贴,不代表本站立场和观点,版权归 oursteps.com.au 和作者 Wangmingtaoau 所有!转贴必须注明作者、出处和本声明,并保持内容完整
比QR 好得多的股票,性价比更合理的多了去了,为什么要买 QR?

Perpetual, Woolworth, QBE 都比QR 好太多。

QR 本身是物流行业,不是周期性的,但它运输的大宗货物是周期性的矿产品。

发表回复

您需要登录后才可以回帖 登录 | 注册

本版积分规则

Advertisement
Advertisement
返回顶部